Discussion:
Do you condemn Hamas?
(too old to reply)
NefeshBarYochai
2024-06-06 21:27:26 UTC
Permalink
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.

Whether it be from Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that
day as a means of creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —
to force well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality of
decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian armed
resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a major point
of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause of
Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect
victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of
solidarity became muddled.

Months later, after tens of thousands of Palestinians have been
murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing
genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank have found themselves
imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their
own annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear many
have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be achieved.

To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”
particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the history of
Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have
always been clear.

A violent phenomenon

As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth has
made clear, national liberation, national reawakening, restoration of
the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the
latest expression — decolonization is always a violent event.
Palestine is not an exception to this reality.

The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant violence
levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This was by
design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a necessarily
brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale elimination of the
Indigenous population in all forms but nostalgia. This violence does
not simply manifest itself through the military campaigns waged by
Zionist settlers and the Israeli occupation army, but through every
part of the colonial endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be
sustained through the suffering, exploitation, repression, and death
of Palestinians and all else that the colony wishes to conquer.

Palestinians, whether in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in
bordering nations, or in the diaspora around the world, are forced
every single day to wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial
violence. The very existence of the Zionist project poses an
existential threat to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel
twist of reality been deemed existential threats by the project for
the simple reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.

This violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to free
themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This resistance
does not generally start as armed struggle, but through civil
disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when
these tactics fail, as they often have, or when exceptional violence
is waged against the people in response, armed struggle becomes a
necessity.

The colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it
undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the
resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and repression
colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent resistance
becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their material
conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one perpetuated first
and foremost by the violence of the colonial entity itself.

Even before the official foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,
this cycle was well established. The Balfour Declaration came into
existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s official endorsement of
Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves
landless. By the 1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed
and economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.

These factors spurred resistance of their own variety, including the
Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to
purchase land, sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables
lobbying for better treatment from their British overlords. This blend
of violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or
ultimately met with limited success.

In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian revolutionary figure
Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian popular resentment turned
into a general strike, and ultimately into popular revolt, which was
put down brutally by Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few
years later, Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000
Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill
thousands more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the
modern day.

Palestinians would rise up as a result of the subjugation they faced,
again through a combination of violent and non-violent struggle that
would be met with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians
waged cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a
Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When
Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were
met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence
that would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall that
surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were killed and
thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of violence
continued and intensified.

Fast forwarding to today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans
in the West Bank, and what could functionally be described as a
concentration camp in Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967
territories living under brutal apartheid management structures. They
have resisted every step of the way, each time seeing thousands
imprisoned, murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and
exploited as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.

When armed struggle becomes material necessity

In the face of all of this violence, armed resistance organizations
have risen up and established themselves amongst the people, whether
they be Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,
or others. These groups, and the violence they employ, did not come to
exist in a vacuum. Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal
colonial violence, and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to
liberate themselves from it.

The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this same
struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they determined may
advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of Palestine, and even
Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements with these tactics, or
on a grander scale, disagreements with the core principles and
ideologies of one or several of the groups deploying them. For those
of us in the Western Left, however, removed from the reality of
on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very
legitimacy of armed struggle itself.

Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they
have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact
toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the West
will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of colonial
power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at the current
moment, with coordination with other resistance factions, made the
Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever been on a global
stage and shattered the image of military invincibility and overall
stability it has spent decades cultivating. Countless years of
struggle have culminated in this flashpoint.

The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown, will be largely
forged through the armed struggle of resistance factions on the
ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it continues to
challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity itself.

Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist project to wage an
increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening contradictions in
such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling. As the masses in
the imperial core, specifically those of the United States, come to
realize that their interests are at odds with the interests of the
Zionist project and their government leaders who are sustaining the
project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional support base the project
relies on has eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing
in firm support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.

In Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity
and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian armed
resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as
the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described it, has worked
as an organ of the liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance
as both a normal and necessary state of being. This has led to a
reality where the resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,
who support them and readily accept the consequences of their
continued fight for liberation.

That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material
results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of
outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no
small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the
territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about
their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation
Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.

Moving past the question

The question of whether we condemn Hamas is more than just a question
of condemnation. At its core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial
violence altogether — to support Palestinians only when they are
perfect victims or only when the groups waging liberatory struggle
align with the values of our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a
question that acts as a trap and misses the point entirely.

We cannot make the mistake of engaging seriously with such an
obfuscation. It is on us, especially those of us on the Left, to
understand that the core driver of the violence we are seeing is and
always has been Zionist settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is
perpetuated not by the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves
from the state of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal
liquidation, but by the Zionist project and those advancing its
interests.

The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/
Sharx335
2024-06-06 23:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
Whether it be from Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that
day as a means of creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —
to force well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality of
decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian armed
resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a major point
of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause of
Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect
victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of
solidarity became muddled.
Months later, after tens of thousands of Palestinians have been
murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing
genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank have found themselves
imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their
own annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear many
have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be achieved.
To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”
particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the history of
Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have
always been clear.
A violent phenomenon
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth has
made clear, national liberation, national reawakening, restoration of
the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the
latest expression — decolonization is always a violent event.
Palestine is not an exception to this reality.
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant violence
levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This was by
design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a necessarily
brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale elimination of the
Indigenous population in all forms but nostalgia. This violence does
not simply manifest itself through the military campaigns waged by
Zionist settlers and the Israeli occupation army, but through every
part of the colonial endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be
sustained through the suffering, exploitation, repression, and death
of Palestinians and all else that the colony wishes to conquer.
Palestinians, whether in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in
bordering nations, or in the diaspora around the world, are forced
every single day to wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial
violence. The very existence of the Zionist project poses an
existential threat to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel
twist of reality been deemed existential threats by the project for
the simple reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.
This violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to free
themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This resistance
does not generally start as armed struggle, but through civil
disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when
these tactics fail, as they often have, or when exceptional violence
is waged against the people in response, armed struggle becomes a
necessity.
The colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it
undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the
resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and repression
colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent resistance
becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their material
conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one perpetuated first
and foremost by the violence of the colonial entity itself.
Even before the official foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,
this cycle was well established. The Balfour Declaration came into
existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s official endorsement of
Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves
landless. By the 1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed
and economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.
These factors spurred resistance of their own variety, including the
Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to
purchase land, sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables
lobbying for better treatment from their British overlords. This blend
of violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or
ultimately met with limited success.
In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian revolutionary figure
Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian popular resentment turned
into a general strike, and ultimately into popular revolt, which was
put down brutally by Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few
years later, Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000
Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill
thousands more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the
modern day.
Palestinians would rise up as a result of the subjugation they faced,
again through a combination of violent and non-violent struggle that
would be met with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians
waged cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a
Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When
Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were
met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence
that would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall that
surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were killed and
thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of violence
continued and intensified.
Fast forwarding to today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans
in the West Bank, and what could functionally be described as a
concentration camp in Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967
territories living under brutal apartheid management structures. They
have resisted every step of the way, each time seeing thousands
imprisoned, murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and
exploited as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.
When armed struggle becomes material necessity
In the face of all of this violence, armed resistance organizations
have risen up and established themselves amongst the people, whether
they be Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,
or others. These groups, and the violence they employ, did not come to
exist in a vacuum. Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal
colonial violence, and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to
liberate themselves from it.
The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this same
struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they determined may
advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of Palestine, and even
Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements with these tactics, or
on a grander scale, disagreements with the core principles and
ideologies of one or several of the groups deploying them. For those
of us in the Western Left, however, removed from the reality of
on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very
legitimacy of armed struggle itself.
Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they
have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact
toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the West
will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of colonial
power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at the current
moment, with coordination with other resistance factions, made the
Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever been on a global
stage and shattered the image of military invincibility and overall
stability it has spent decades cultivating. Countless years of
struggle have culminated in this flashpoint.
The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown, will be largely
forged through the armed struggle of resistance factions on the
ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it continues to
challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity itself.
Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist project to wage an
increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening contradictions in
such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling. As the masses in
the imperial core, specifically those of the United States, come to
realize that their interests are at odds with the interests of the
Zionist project and their government leaders who are sustaining the
project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional support base the project
relies on has eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing
in firm support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.
In Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity
and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian armed
resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as
the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described it, has worked
as an organ of the liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance
as both a normal and necessary state of being. This has led to a
reality where the resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,
who support them and readily accept the consequences of their
continued fight for liberation.
That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material
results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of
outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no
small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the
territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about
their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation
Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.
Moving past the question
The question of whether we condemn Hamas is more than just a question
of condemnation. At its core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial
violence altogether — to support Palestinians only when they are
perfect victims or only when the groups waging liberatory struggle
align with the values of our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a
question that acts as a trap and misses the point entirely.
We cannot make the mistake of engaging seriously with such an
obfuscation. It is on us, especially those of us on the Left, to
understand that the core driver of the violence we are seeing is and
always has been Zionist settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is
perpetuated not by the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves
from the state of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal
liquidation, but by the Zionist project and those advancing its
interests.
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/
But when "armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women
and hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked bunch
of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send thousands
and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention causing
dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had said,
in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing Gaza
initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting Israel
WHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the "Old
Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic groups would
do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop waving the old flags
over here.
%
2024-06-06 23:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharx335
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
Whether it be from Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that
day as a means of creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —
to force well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality of
decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian armed
resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a major point
of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause of
Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect
victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of
solidarity became muddled.
Months later, after tens of thousands of Palestinians have been
murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing
genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank have found themselves
imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their
own annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear many
have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be achieved.
To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”
particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the history of
Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have
always been clear.
A violent phenomenon
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth has
made clear, national liberation, national reawakening, restoration of
the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the
latest expression — decolonization is always a violent event.
Palestine is not an exception to this reality.
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant violence
levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This was by
design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a necessarily
brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale elimination of the
Indigenous population in all forms but nostalgia. This violence does
not simply manifest itself through the military campaigns waged by
Zionist settlers and the Israeli occupation army, but through every
part of the colonial endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be
sustained through the suffering, exploitation, repression, and death
of Palestinians and all else that the colony wishes to conquer.
Palestinians, whether in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in
bordering nations, or in the diaspora around the world, are forced
every single day to wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial
violence. The very existence of the Zionist project poses an
existential threat to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel
twist of reality been deemed existential threats by the project for
the simple reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.
This violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to free
themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This resistance
does not generally start as armed struggle, but through civil
disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when
these tactics fail, as they often have, or when exceptional violence
is waged against the people in response, armed struggle becomes a
necessity.
The colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it
undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the
resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and repression
colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent resistance
becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their material
conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one perpetuated first
and foremost by the violence of the colonial entity itself.
Even before the official foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,
this cycle was well established. The Balfour Declaration came into
existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s official endorsement of
Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves
landless. By the 1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed
and economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.
These factors spurred resistance of their own variety, including the
Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to
purchase land, sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables
lobbying for better treatment from their British overlords. This blend
of violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or
ultimately met with limited success.
In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian revolutionary figure
Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian popular resentment turned
into a general strike, and ultimately into popular revolt, which was
put down brutally by Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few
years later, Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000
Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill
thousands more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the
modern day.
Palestinians would rise up as a result of the subjugation they faced,
again through a combination of violent and non-violent struggle that
would be met with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians
waged cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a
Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When
Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were
met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence
that would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall that
surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were killed and
thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of violence
continued and intensified.
Fast forwarding to today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans
in the West Bank, and what could functionally be described as a
concentration camp in Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967
territories living under brutal apartheid management structures. They
have resisted every step of the way, each time seeing thousands
imprisoned, murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and
exploited as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.
When armed struggle becomes material necessity
In the face of all of this violence, armed resistance organizations
have risen up and established themselves amongst the people, whether
they be Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,
or others. These groups, and the violence they employ, did not come to
exist in a vacuum. Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal
colonial violence, and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to
liberate themselves from it.
The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this same
struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they determined may
advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of Palestine, and even
Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements with these tactics, or
on a grander scale, disagreements with the core principles and
ideologies of one or several of the groups deploying them. For those
of us in the Western Left, however, removed from the reality of
on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very
legitimacy of armed struggle itself.
Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they
have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact
toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the West
will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of colonial
power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at the current
moment, with coordination with other resistance factions, made the
Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever been on a global
stage and shattered the image of military invincibility and overall
stability it has spent decades cultivating. Countless years of
struggle have culminated in this flashpoint.
The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown, will be largely
forged through the armed struggle of resistance factions on the
ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it continues to
challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity itself.
Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist project to wage an
increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening contradictions in
such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling. As the masses in
the imperial core, specifically those of the United States, come to
realize that their interests are at odds with the interests of the
Zionist project and their government leaders who are sustaining the
project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional support base the project
relies on has eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing
in firm support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.
In Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity
and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian armed
resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as
the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described it, has worked
as an organ of the liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance
as both a normal and necessary state of being. This has led to a
reality where the resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,
who support them and readily accept the consequences of their
continued fight for liberation.
That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material
results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of
outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no
small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the
territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about
their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation
Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.
Moving past the question
The question of whether we condemn Hamas is more than just a question
of condemnation. At its core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial
violence altogether — to support Palestinians only when they are
perfect victims or only when the groups waging liberatory struggle
align with the values of our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a
question that acts as a trap and misses the point entirely.
We cannot make the mistake of engaging seriously with such an
obfuscation. It is on us, especially those of us on the Left, to
understand that the core driver of the violence we are seeing is and
always has been Zionist settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is
perpetuated not by the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves
from the state of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal
liquidation, but by the Zionist project and those advancing its
interests.
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/
But when "armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women
and hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked bunch
of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send thousands
and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention causing
dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had said,
in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing Gaza
initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting Israel
WHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the "Old
Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic groups would
do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop waving the old flags
over here.
this land is my land ,
this land is my land
this land's not your land ,
because it's my land
*skriptis
2024-06-07 00:18:44 UTC
Permalink
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many found themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely> considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect> victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of> solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens of thousands of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank have found themselves> imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their> own annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear> than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by> resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and> enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their> lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear many> have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the> Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be achieved.> > To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the history of> Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have> always been clear.> > A violent phenomenon> > As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth has> made clear, national liberation, national reawakening, restoration of> the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the> latest expression — decolonization is always a violent event.> Palestine is not an exception to this reality.> > The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism> throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant violence> levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This was by> design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a necessarily> brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale elimination of the> Indigenous population in all forms but nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself through the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the Israeli occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The very existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality been deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,> whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,> colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to free> themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This resistance> does not generally start as armed struggle, but through civil> disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when> these tactics fail, as they often have, or when exceptional violence> is waged against the people in response, armed struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it> undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the> resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and repression> colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent resistance> becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their material> conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one perpetuated first> and foremost by the violence of the colonial entity itself.> > Even before the official foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,> this cycle was well established. The Balfour Declaration came into> existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the 1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable> imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more> intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal> work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred resistance of their own variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land, sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for better treatment from their British overlords. This blend> of violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or> ultimately met with limited success.> > In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and ultimately into popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few> years later, Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill> thousands more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the> “catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the> modern day.> > Palestinians would rise up as a result of the subjugation they faced,> again through a combination of violent and non-violent struggle that> would be met with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians> waged cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a> Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When> Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were> met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence> that would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance> efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank, and what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned, murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of> eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence, armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups, and the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum. Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence, and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves from it.> > The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they determined may> advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements with these tactics, or> on a grander scale, disagreements with the core principles and> ideologies of one or several of the groups deploying them. For those> of us in the Western Left, however, removed from the reality of> on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very> legitimacy of armed struggle itself.> > Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they> have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact> toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the West> will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of colonial> power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at the current> moment, with coordination with other resistance factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever been on a global> stage and shattered the image of military invincibility and overall> stability it has spent decades cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in this flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown, will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of resistance factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it continues to> challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling. As the masses in> the imperial core, specifically those of the United States, come to> realize that their interests are at odds with the interests of the> Zionist project and their government leaders who are sustaining the> project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional support base the project> relies on has eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing> in firm support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.> > In Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed> what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity> and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian armed> resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described it, has worked> as an organ of the liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal and necessary state of being. This has led to a> reality where the resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,> who support them and readily accept the consequences of their> continued fight for liberation.> > That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material> results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of> outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no> small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the> territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about> their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation> Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic> Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance> struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.> > Moving past the question> > The question of whether we condemn Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether — to support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us, especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation, but by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> > The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not> whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial> regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> > https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when "armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the "Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop waving the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the course of past century expelling the natives.

Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's homeland and claiming it for their own.


But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire problem. You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives (Christians and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish theft and seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial state, the Israel.

But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.

World = UN.


But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn 1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation, continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and abusing the Moslems and Christians.


Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?

Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?

You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.


Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
--
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
Idlehands
2024-06-07 03:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question became
seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians defied the
imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade and a half of
living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many found
themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause
of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect>
victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of>
solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens of thousands
of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in
Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank
have found themselves> imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy
for those resisting their> own annihilation has grown, with the
conversation becoming more clear> than it was in the days proceeding
October 7. As videos spread by> resistance factions across Gaza and
Lebanon find a regular and> enthusiastic audience and chants in
support of those putting their> lives on the line take root in
protests nationwide, it is clear many> have grown to accept the
necessity of armed struggle in the> Palestinian context, though a
true consensus has yet to be achieved.> > To that end, the answer to
the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us
on the Left as we analyze the history of> Palestine and why
resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have> always been
clear.> > A violent phenomenon> > As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited
statement from Wretched of the Earth has> made clear, national
liberation, national reawakening, restoration of> the nation to the
Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the> latest expression
— decolonization is always a violent event.> Palestine is not an
exception to this reality.> > The colonization of Palestine by
Zionists, like all colonialism> throughout history, brought with it
widespread and constant violence> levied in all forms against the
Palestinian people. This was by> design, as the very nature of
settler colonialism is a necessarily> brutal one given the end goal
of the wholesale elimination of the> Indigenous population in all
forms but nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself
through the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the
Israeli occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial
endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The very
existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat to the
lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality been
deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple reason that
their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This violence does not
occur without resistance. Throughout history,> whether it be in
Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,> colonized people have
risen up in the face of brutal violence to free> themselves from the
shackles of their own oppression. This resistance> does not generally
start as armed struggle, but through civil> disobedience, protests,
general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when> these tactics fail,
as they often have, or when exceptional violence> is waged against
the people in response, armed struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The
colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it>
undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the>
resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and
repression> colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent
resistance> becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their
material> conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one
perpetuated first> and foremost by the violence of the colonial
entity itself.> > Even before the official foundation of the Zionist
project in 1948,> this cycle was well established. The Balfour
Declaration came into> existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s
official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of
Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the 1930s, many
Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and economically destitute,
as Zionist capital, backed by favorable> imperial British laws and
treatment, began flowing ever more> intensively into Palestine,
according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal> work on the 1936 Great
Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred resistance of their own
variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by
Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land, sporadic violence,
as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for better treatment from
their British overlords. This blend> of violent and non-violent
efforts would all be suppressed or> ultimately met with limited
success.> > In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian
revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian
popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and ultimately into
popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by Zionist and British
forces by 1939. Only a few> years later, Zionists would ethnically
cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities,
towns, and villages and kill> thousands more in what Palestinians
refer to as the Nakba, or the> “catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing
campaigns continue up to the> modern day.> > Palestinians would rise
up as a result of the subjugation they faced,> again through a
combination of violent and non-violent struggle that> would be met
with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians> waged
cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a>
Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When>
Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they
were> met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread
violence> that would lead to the intensification of their own violent
resistance> efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to
the wall that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds
were killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The
cycle of violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to
today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank,
and what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups, and
the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum. Rather,
they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence, and the
culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves from it.>
Post by NefeshBarYochai
The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this
same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they
determined may> advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of
Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements
with these tactics, or> on a grander scale, disagreements with the
core principles and> ideologies of one or several of the groups
deploying them. For those> of us in the Western Left, however,
removed from the reality of> on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean
that we undermine the very> legitimacy of armed struggle itself.> >
Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they>
have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact>
toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the
West> will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of
colonial> power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at
the current> moment, with coordination with other resistance
factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever
been on a global> stage and shattered the image of military
invincibility and overall> stability it has spent decades
cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in this
flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown,
will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of resistance
factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it
continues to> challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity
itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist
project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening
contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling.
As the masses in> the imperial core, specifically those of the United
States, come to> realize that their interests are at odds with the
interests of the> Zionist project and their government leaders who
are sustaining the> project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional
support base the project> relies on has eroded. In its place is an
ever-increasing mass standing> in firm support of Palestinians,
rather than their colonizers.> > In Palestine, the Palestinian
struggle for liberation has developed> what can be called a “Popular
Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity> and cohesion that has
developed between the Palestinian armed> resistance and broader
Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth
Movement has so aptly described it, has worked> as an organ of the
liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal
and necessary state of being. This has led to a> reality where the
resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,> who support them
and readily accept the consequences of their> continued fight for
liberation.> > That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping
material> results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a
campaign of> outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very
struggle in no> small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers
from the> territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they
went about> their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli
Occupation> Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across
historic> Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the
resistance> struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian
survival.> > Moving past the question> > The question of whether we
condemn Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its
core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether —
to support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state of
total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation, but
by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> > The
question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not> whether
we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial> regime
that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop waving
the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire problem.
You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives (Christians
and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish theft and
seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
Mr Pot, Mr Kettle on line one for you.
--
Facisim: The first step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent

Bertrand Russell
%
2024-06-07 14:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Idlehands
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question
became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians
defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade
and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many
found themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the
cause of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as
perfect> victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the
question of> solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens
of thousands of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli
Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after
thousands in the West Bank have found themselves> imprisoned or
under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their> own
annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear>
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by>
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and>
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their>
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear
many> have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the>
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be
achieved.> > To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn
Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the
history of> Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial
context, should have> always been clear.> > A violent phenomenon> >
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth
has> made clear, national liberation, national reawakening,
restoration of> the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name
used, whatever the> latest expression — decolonization is always a
violent event.> Palestine is not an exception to this reality.> >
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism>
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant
violence> levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This
was by> design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a
necessarily> brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale
elimination of the> Indigenous population in all forms but
nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself through
the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the Israeli
occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial endeavor
itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The
very existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat
to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality
been deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple
reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This
violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,>
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,>
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to
free> themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This
resistance> does not generally start as armed struggle, but through
civil> disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics.
Yet when> these tactics fail, as they often have, or when
exceptional violence> is waged against the people in response, armed
struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The colonial power, its legitimacy
owed solely to the force it> undertakes to maintain its existence,
creates the conditions for the> resistance that will rise against
it. The more violence and repression> colonized people face, the
more they resist. Violent resistance> becomes mainstream out of
sheer necessity given their material> conditions. This creates a
cycle of violence, one perpetuated first> and foremost by the
violence of the colonial entity itself.> > Even before the official
foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,> this cycle was well
established. The Balfour Declaration came into> existence in 1917,
signifying Britain’s official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations.
By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the
1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and
economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable>
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more>
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal>
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred
resistance of their own variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of
1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land,
sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for
better treatment from their British overlords. This blend> of
violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or>
ultimately met with limited success.> > In 1936, when British forces
murdered Syrian revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam,
Palestinian popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and
ultimately into popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by
Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few> years later,
Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians
from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill> thousands
more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the>
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the>
modern day.> > Palestinians would rise up as a result of the
subjugation they faced,> again through a combination of violent and
non-violent struggle that> would be met with even more violent
oppression. When Palestinians> waged cross-border raids into
occupied territory, they were met with a> Zionist invasion in
Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When> Palestinians rose
up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were> met with
violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence> that
would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance>
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall
that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were
killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of
violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to today,
Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank, and
what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups,
and the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum.
Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence,
and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves
from it.> > The tactics they employ on the ground are the
culmination of this same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo
operations they determined may> advance their liberatory struggle.
Many outside of Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may
have disagreements with these tactics, or> on a grander scale,
disagreements with the core principles and> ideologies of one or
several of the groups deploying them. For those> of us in the
Western Left, however, removed from the reality of> on-the-ground
struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very> legitimacy of
armed struggle itself.> > Hamas is a key example of this. Like them
or not, the efforts they> have waged and continue to wage have made
more of a material impact> toward the liberation of Palestine than
anything any of us in the West> will ever make. They are taking on
the brutal violence of colonial> power and waging a campaign of
armed struggle that has, at the current> moment, with coordination
with other resistance factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a
pariah than it has ever been on a global> stage and shattered the
image of military invincibility and overall> stability it has spent
decades cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in
this flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly
shown, will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of
resistance factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on
it, and it continues to> challenge and erode the power of the
Zionist entity itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced
the Zionist project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that
is sharpening contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its
continued unraveling. As the masses in> the imperial core,
specifically those of the United States, come to> realize that their
interests are at odds with the interests of the> Zionist project and
their government leaders who are sustaining the> project’s ongoing
genocide, the traditional support base the project> relies on has
eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing> in firm
support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.> > In
Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed>
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of
unity> and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian
armed> resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular
cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described
it, has worked> as an organ of the liberation struggle by
conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal and necessary state of
being. This has led to a> reality where the resistance is sustained
by the masses themselves,> who support them and readily accept the
consequences of their> continued fight for liberation.> > That armed
struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material> results, even
in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of> outright
genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no> small part
led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the> territory which
forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about> their
occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation> Forces
from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic>
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance>
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.>
Moving past the question> > The question of whether we condemn
Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its core, we
are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether — to
support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state
of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation,
but by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> >
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not>
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial>
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop
waving the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire
problem. You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives
(Christians and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish
theft and seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial
state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
Mr Pot, Mr Kettle on line one for you.
nice crossposting , wang head
The Doctor
2024-06-07 15:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by %
Post by Idlehands
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question
became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians
defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade
and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many
found themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the
cause of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as
perfect> victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the
question of> solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens
of thousands of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli
Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after
thousands in the West Bank have found themselves> imprisoned or
under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their> own
annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear>
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by>
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and>
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their>
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear
many> have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the>
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be
achieved.> > To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn
Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the
history of> Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial
context, should have> always been clear.> > A violent phenomenon> >
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth
has> made clear, national liberation, national reawakening,
restoration of> the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name
used, whatever the> latest expression — decolonization is always a
violent event.> Palestine is not an exception to this reality.> >
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism>
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant
violence> levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This
was by> design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a
necessarily> brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale
elimination of the> Indigenous population in all forms but
nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself through
the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the Israeli
occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial endeavor
itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The
very existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat
to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality
been deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple
reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This
violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,>
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,>
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to
free> themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This
resistance> does not generally start as armed struggle, but through
civil> disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics.
Yet when> these tactics fail, as they often have, or when
exceptional violence> is waged against the people in response, armed
struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The colonial power, its legitimacy
owed solely to the force it> undertakes to maintain its existence,
creates the conditions for the> resistance that will rise against
it. The more violence and repression> colonized people face, the
more they resist. Violent resistance> becomes mainstream out of
sheer necessity given their material> conditions. This creates a
cycle of violence, one perpetuated first> and foremost by the
violence of the colonial entity itself.> > Even before the official
foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,> this cycle was well
established. The Balfour Declaration came into> existence in 1917,
signifying Britain’s official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations.
By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the
1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and
economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable>
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more>
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal>
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred
resistance of their own variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of
1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land,
sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for
better treatment from their British overlords. This blend> of
violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or>
ultimately met with limited success.> > In 1936, when British forces
murdered Syrian revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam,
Palestinian popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and
ultimately into popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by
Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few> years later,
Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians
from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill> thousands
more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the>
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the>
modern day.> > Palestinians would rise up as a result of the
subjugation they faced,> again through a combination of violent and
non-violent struggle that> would be met with even more violent
oppression. When Palestinians> waged cross-border raids into
occupied territory, they were met with a> Zionist invasion in
Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When> Palestinians rose
up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were> met with
violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence> that
would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance>
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall
that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were
killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of
violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to today,
Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank, and
what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups,
and the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum.
Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence,
and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves
from it.> > The tactics they employ on the ground are the
culmination of this same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo
operations they determined may> advance their liberatory struggle.
Many outside of Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may
have disagreements with these tactics, or> on a grander scale,
disagreements with the core principles and> ideologies of one or
several of the groups deploying them. For those> of us in the
Western Left, however, removed from the reality of> on-the-ground
struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very> legitimacy of
armed struggle itself.> > Hamas is a key example of this. Like them
or not, the efforts they> have waged and continue to wage have made
more of a material impact> toward the liberation of Palestine than
anything any of us in the West> will ever make. They are taking on
the brutal violence of colonial> power and waging a campaign of
armed struggle that has, at the current> moment, with coordination
with other resistance factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a
pariah than it has ever been on a global> stage and shattered the
image of military invincibility and overall> stability it has spent
decades cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in
this flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly
shown, will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of
resistance factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on
it, and it continues to> challenge and erode the power of the
Zionist entity itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced
the Zionist project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that
is sharpening contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its
continued unraveling. As the masses in> the imperial core,
specifically those of the United States, come to> realize that their
interests are at odds with the interests of the> Zionist project and
their government leaders who are sustaining the> project’s ongoing
genocide, the traditional support base the project> relies on has
eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing> in firm
support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.> > In
Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed>
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of
unity> and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian
armed> resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular
cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described
it, has worked> as an organ of the liberation struggle by
conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal and necessary state of
being. This has led to a> reality where the resistance is sustained
by the masses themselves,> who support them and readily accept the
consequences of their> continued fight for liberation.> > That armed
struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material> results, even
in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of> outright
genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no> small part
led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the> territory which
forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about> their
occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation> Forces
from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic>
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance>
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.>
Moving past the question> > The question of whether we condemn
Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its core, we
are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether — to
support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state
of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation,
but by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> >
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not>
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial>
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop
waving the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire
problem. You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives
(Christians and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish
theft and seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial
state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
Mr Pot, Mr Kettle on line one for you.
nice crossposting , wang head
Sharx and % are intelligent in comparison to lying Idlehands!
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nk.ca Ici ***@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ;
United Kingdom save the NAtion on 4 July 2024 vote Liberal Democrat
%
2024-06-07 16:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Post by %
Post by Idlehands
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question
became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians
defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade
and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many
found themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the
cause of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as
perfect> victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the
question of> solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens
of thousands of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli
Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after
thousands in the West Bank have found themselves> imprisoned or
under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their> own
annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear>
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by>
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and>
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their>
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear
many> have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the>
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be
achieved.> > To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn
Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the
history of> Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial
context, should have> always been clear.> > A violent phenomenon> >
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth
has> made clear, national liberation, national reawakening,
restoration of> the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name
used, whatever the> latest expression — decolonization is always a
violent event.> Palestine is not an exception to this reality.> >
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism>
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant
violence> levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This
was by> design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a
necessarily> brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale
elimination of the> Indigenous population in all forms but
nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself through
the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the Israeli
occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial endeavor
itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The
very existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat
to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality
been deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple
reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This
violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,>
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,>
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to
free> themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This
resistance> does not generally start as armed struggle, but through
civil> disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics.
Yet when> these tactics fail, as they often have, or when
exceptional violence> is waged against the people in response, armed
struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The colonial power, its legitimacy
owed solely to the force it> undertakes to maintain its existence,
creates the conditions for the> resistance that will rise against
it. The more violence and repression> colonized people face, the
more they resist. Violent resistance> becomes mainstream out of
sheer necessity given their material> conditions. This creates a
cycle of violence, one perpetuated first> and foremost by the
violence of the colonial entity itself.> > Even before the official
foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,> this cycle was well
established. The Balfour Declaration came into> existence in 1917,
signifying Britain’s official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations.
By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the
1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and
economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable>
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more>
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal>
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred
resistance of their own variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of
1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land,
sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for
better treatment from their British overlords. This blend> of
violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or>
ultimately met with limited success.> > In 1936, when British forces
murdered Syrian revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam,
Palestinian popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and
ultimately into popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by
Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few> years later,
Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians
from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill> thousands
more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the>
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the>
modern day.> > Palestinians would rise up as a result of the
subjugation they faced,> again through a combination of violent and
non-violent struggle that> would be met with even more violent
oppression. When Palestinians> waged cross-border raids into
occupied territory, they were met with a> Zionist invasion in
Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When> Palestinians rose
up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were> met with
violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence> that
would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance>
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall
that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were
killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of
violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to today,
Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank, and
what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups,
and the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum.
Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence,
and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves
from it.> > The tactics they employ on the ground are the
culmination of this same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo
operations they determined may> advance their liberatory struggle.
Many outside of Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may
have disagreements with these tactics, or> on a grander scale,
disagreements with the core principles and> ideologies of one or
several of the groups deploying them. For those> of us in the
Western Left, however, removed from the reality of> on-the-ground
struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very> legitimacy of
armed struggle itself.> > Hamas is a key example of this. Like them
or not, the efforts they> have waged and continue to wage have made
more of a material impact> toward the liberation of Palestine than
anything any of us in the West> will ever make. They are taking on
the brutal violence of colonial> power and waging a campaign of
armed struggle that has, at the current> moment, with coordination
with other resistance factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a
pariah than it has ever been on a global> stage and shattered the
image of military invincibility and overall> stability it has spent
decades cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in
this flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly
shown, will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of
resistance factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on
it, and it continues to> challenge and erode the power of the
Zionist entity itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced
the Zionist project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that
is sharpening contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its
continued unraveling. As the masses in> the imperial core,
specifically those of the United States, come to> realize that their
interests are at odds with the interests of the> Zionist project and
their government leaders who are sustaining the> project’s ongoing
genocide, the traditional support base the project> relies on has
eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing> in firm
support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.> > In
Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed>
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of
unity> and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian
armed> resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular
cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described
it, has worked> as an organ of the liberation struggle by
conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal and necessary state of
being. This has led to a> reality where the resistance is sustained
by the masses themselves,> who support them and readily accept the
consequences of their> continued fight for liberation.> > That armed
struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material> results, even
in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of> outright
genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no> small part
led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the> territory which
forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about> their
occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation> Forces
from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic>
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance>
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.>
Moving past the question> > The question of whether we condemn
Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its core, we
are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether — to
support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state
of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation,
but by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> >
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not>
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial>
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop
waving the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire
problem. You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives
(Christians and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish
theft and seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial
state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
Mr Pot, Mr Kettle on line one for you.
nice crossposting , wang head
Sharx and % are intelligent in comparison to lying Idlehands!
lol
%
2024-06-10 17:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Post by %
Post by Idlehands
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question
became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians
defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade
and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many
found themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the
cause of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as
perfect> victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the
question of> solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens
of thousands of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli
Occupation Forces in Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after
thousands in the West Bank have found themselves> imprisoned or
under regular attack, sympathy for those resisting their> own
annihilation has grown, with the conversation becoming more clear>
than it was in the days proceeding October 7. As videos spread by>
resistance factions across Gaza and Lebanon find a regular and>
enthusiastic audience and chants in support of those putting their>
lives on the line take root in protests nationwide, it is clear
many> have grown to accept the necessity of armed struggle in the>
Palestinian context, though a true consensus has yet to be
achieved.> > To that end, the answer to the question “Do you condemn
Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us on the Left as we analyze the
history of> Palestine and why resistance occurs in a colonial
context, should have> always been clear.> > A violent phenomenon> >
As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited statement from Wretched of the Earth
has> made clear, national liberation, national reawakening,
restoration of> the nation to the Commonwealth, whatever the name
used, whatever the> latest expression — decolonization is always a
violent event.> Palestine is not an exception to this reality.> >
The colonization of Palestine by Zionists, like all colonialism>
throughout history, brought with it widespread and constant
violence> levied in all forms against the Palestinian people. This
was by> design, as the very nature of settler colonialism is a
necessarily> brutal one given the end goal of the wholesale
elimination of the> Indigenous population in all forms but
nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself through
the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the Israeli
occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial endeavor
itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The
very existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat
to the lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality
been deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple
reason that their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This
violence does not occur without resistance. Throughout history,>
whether it be in Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,>
colonized people have risen up in the face of brutal violence to
free> themselves from the shackles of their own oppression. This
resistance> does not generally start as armed struggle, but through
civil> disobedience, protests, general strikes, and similar tactics.
Yet when> these tactics fail, as they often have, or when
exceptional violence> is waged against the people in response, armed
struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The colonial power, its legitimacy
owed solely to the force it> undertakes to maintain its existence,
creates the conditions for the> resistance that will rise against
it. The more violence and repression> colonized people face, the
more they resist. Violent resistance> becomes mainstream out of
sheer necessity given their material> conditions. This creates a
cycle of violence, one perpetuated first> and foremost by the
violence of the colonial entity itself.> > Even before the official
foundation of the Zionist project in 1948,> this cycle was well
established. The Balfour Declaration came into> existence in 1917,
signifying Britain’s official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations.
By 1929, a fifth of Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the
1930s, many Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and
economically destitute, as Zionist capital, backed by favorable>
imperial British laws and treatment, began flowing ever more>
intensively into Palestine, according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal>
work on the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred
resistance of their own variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of
1929, efforts by Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land,
sporadic violence, as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for
better treatment from their British overlords. This blend> of
violent and non-violent efforts would all be suppressed or>
ultimately met with limited success.> > In 1936, when British forces
murdered Syrian revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam,
Palestinian popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and
ultimately into popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by
Zionist and British forces by 1939. Only a few> years later,
Zionists would ethnically cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians
from upwards of 530 cities, towns, and villages and kill> thousands
more in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or the>
“catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing campaigns continue up to the>
modern day.> > Palestinians would rise up as a result of the
subjugation they faced,> again through a combination of violent and
non-violent struggle that> would be met with even more violent
oppression. When Palestinians> waged cross-border raids into
occupied territory, they were met with a> Zionist invasion in
Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When> Palestinians rose
up during the First and Second Intifadas, they were> met with
violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread violence> that
would lead to the intensification of their own violent resistance>
efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to the wall
that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds were
killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The cycle of
violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to today,
Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank, and
what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups,
and the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum.
Rather, they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence,
and the culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves
from it.> > The tactics they employ on the ground are the
culmination of this same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo
operations they determined may> advance their liberatory struggle.
Many outside of Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may
have disagreements with these tactics, or> on a grander scale,
disagreements with the core principles and> ideologies of one or
several of the groups deploying them. For those> of us in the
Western Left, however, removed from the reality of> on-the-ground
struggle, this cannot mean that we undermine the very> legitimacy of
armed struggle itself.> > Hamas is a key example of this. Like them
or not, the efforts they> have waged and continue to wage have made
more of a material impact> toward the liberation of Palestine than
anything any of us in the West> will ever make. They are taking on
the brutal violence of colonial> power and waging a campaign of
armed struggle that has, at the current> moment, with coordination
with other resistance factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a
pariah than it has ever been on a global> stage and shattered the
image of military invincibility and overall> stability it has spent
decades cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in
this flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly
shown, will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of
resistance factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on
it, and it continues to> challenge and erode the power of the
Zionist entity itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced
the Zionist project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that
is sharpening contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its
continued unraveling. As the masses in> the imperial core,
specifically those of the United States, come to> realize that their
interests are at odds with the interests of the> Zionist project and
their government leaders who are sustaining the> project’s ongoing
genocide, the traditional support base the project> relies on has
eroded. In its place is an ever-increasing mass standing> in firm
support of Palestinians, rather than their colonizers.> > In
Palestine, the Palestinian struggle for liberation has developed>
what can be called a “Popular Cradle” of resistance — a state of
unity> and cohesion that has developed between the Palestinian
armed> resistance and broader Palestinian society. That “popular
cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth Movement has so aptly described
it, has worked> as an organ of the liberation struggle by
conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal and necessary state of
being. This has led to a> reality where the resistance is sustained
by the masses themselves,> who support them and readily accept the
consequences of their> continued fight for liberation.> > That armed
struggle, a material necessity, is reaping material> results, even
in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a campaign of> outright
genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very struggle in no> small part
led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers from the> territory which
forced Zionist planners to rework how they went about> their
occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli Occupation> Forces
from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across historic>
Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the resistance>
struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian survival.>
Moving past the question> > The question of whether we condemn
Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its core, we
are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether — to
support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state
of total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation,
but by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> >
The question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not>
whether we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial>
regime that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop
waving the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire
problem. You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives
(Christians and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish
theft and seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial
state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
Mr Pot, Mr Kettle on line one for you.
nice crossposting , wang head
Sharx and % are intelligent in comparison to lying Idlehands!
you have shit for brains, binky

Pelle Svanslös
2024-06-07 17:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
On 2024-06-06 3:27 p.m., NefeshBarYochai wrote:> This question became
seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As> Palestinians defied the
imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a> decade and a half of
living under total air, land, and sea blockade,> many found
themselves having to face this question.> > Whether it be from
Zionists using the violence we witnessed on that> day as a means of
creating story after story of atrocity propaganda —> to force
well-meaning allies into a corner or even those who genuinely>
considered themselves pro-Palestine who struggled with the reality
of> decolonial violence — the question of whether or not Palestinian
armed> resistance factions deserved support or criticism became a
major point> of contention. It was easy for many to support the cause
of> Palestinian liberation when they viewed Palestinians as perfect>
victims, but when Palestinians fought back, suddenly the question of>
solidarity became muddled.> > Months later, after tens of thousands
of Palestinians have been> murdered by Israeli Occupation Forces in
Gaza amid an ongoing> genocide, and after thousands in the West Bank
have found themselves> imprisoned or under regular attack, sympathy
for those resisting their> own annihilation has grown, with the
conversation becoming more clear> than it was in the days proceeding
October 7. As videos spread by> resistance factions across Gaza and
Lebanon find a regular and> enthusiastic audience and chants in
support of those putting their> lives on the line take root in
protests nationwide, it is clear many> have grown to accept the
necessity of armed struggle in the> Palestinian context, though a
true consensus has yet to be achieved.> > To that end, the answer to
the question “Do you condemn Hamas?,”> particularly for those of us
on the Left as we analyze the history of> Palestine and why
resistance occurs in a colonial context, should have> always been
clear.> > A violent phenomenon> > As Frantz Fanon’s oft-cited
statement from Wretched of the Earth has> made clear, national
liberation, national reawakening, restoration of> the nation to the
Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the> latest expression
— decolonization is always a violent event.> Palestine is not an
exception to this reality.> > The colonization of Palestine by
Zionists, like all colonialism> throughout history, brought with it
widespread and constant violence> levied in all forms against the
Palestinian people. This was by> design, as the very nature of
settler colonialism is a necessarily> brutal one given the end goal
of the wholesale elimination of the> Indigenous population in all
forms but nostalgia. This violence does> not simply manifest itself
through the military campaigns waged by> Zionist settlers and the
Israeli occupation army, but through every> part of the colonial
endeavor itself — an endeavor that can only be> sustained through the
suffering, exploitation, repression, and death> of Palestinians and
all else that the colony wishes to conquer.> > Palestinians, whether
in Occupied Palestine, in refugee camps in> bordering nations, or in
the diaspora around the world, are forced> every single day to
wrestle with the reality of this settler colonial> violence. The very
existence of the Zionist project poses an> existential threat to the
lives of millions, who have in some cruel> twist of reality been
deemed existential threats by the project for> the simple reason that
their existence undermines its legitimacy.> > This violence does not
occur without resistance. Throughout history,> whether it be in
Algeria, South Africa, Ireland, or Palestine,> colonized people have
risen up in the face of brutal violence to free> themselves from the
shackles of their own oppression. This resistance> does not generally
start as armed struggle, but through civil> disobedience, protests,
general strikes, and similar tactics. Yet when> these tactics fail,
as they often have, or when exceptional violence> is waged against
the people in response, armed struggle becomes a> necessity.> > The
colonial power, its legitimacy owed solely to the force it>
undertakes to maintain its existence, creates the conditions for the>
resistance that will rise against it. The more violence and
repression> colonized people face, the more they resist. Violent
resistance> becomes mainstream out of sheer necessity given their
material> conditions. This creates a cycle of violence, one
perpetuated first> and foremost by the violence of the colonial
entity itself.> > Even before the official foundation of the Zionist
project in 1948,> this cycle was well established. The Balfour
Declaration came into> existence in 1917, signifying Britain’s
official endorsement of> Zionist aspirations. By 1929, a fifth of
Palestinians found themselves> landless. By the 1930s, many
Palestinians found themselves unemployed> and economically destitute,
as Zionist capital, backed by favorable> imperial British laws and
treatment, began flowing ever more> intensively into Palestine,
according to Ghassan Kanafani’s seminal> work on the 1936 Great
Palestinian Revolt.> > These factors spurred resistance of their own
variety, including the> Buraq Uprising of 1929, efforts by
Palestinians to pool resources to> purchase land, sporadic violence,
as well as Palestinian notables> lobbying for better treatment from
their British overlords. This blend> of violent and non-violent
efforts would all be suppressed or> ultimately met with limited
success.> > In 1936, when British forces murdered Syrian
revolutionary figure> Shaykh ‘Izz al-Din al-Qassam, Palestinian
popular resentment turned> into a general strike, and ultimately into
popular revolt, which was> put down brutally by Zionist and British
forces by 1939. Only a few> years later, Zionists would ethnically
cleanse more than 750,000> Palestinians from upwards of 530 cities,
towns, and villages and kill> thousands more in what Palestinians
refer to as the Nakba, or the> “catastrophe”. These ethnic cleansing
campaigns continue up to the> modern day.> > Palestinians would rise
up as a result of the subjugation they faced,> again through a
combination of violent and non-violent struggle that> would be met
with even more violent oppression. When Palestinians> waged
cross-border raids into occupied territory, they were met with a>
Zionist invasion in Lebanon and massacres at Sabra and Shatila. When>
Palestinians rose up during the First and Second Intifadas, they
were> met with violent crackdowns, mass arrests, and widespread
violence> that would lead to the intensification of their own violent
resistance> efforts. When Palestinians in Gaza took to marching to
the wall that> surrounded them in the March of Great Return, hundreds
were killed and> thousands more injured by Israeli soldiers. The
cycle of violence> continued and intensified.> > Fast forwarding to
today, Palestinians continue to live in bantustans> in the West Bank,
and what could functionally be described as a> concentration camp in
Gaza, with Palestinians in the 1948 and 1967> territories living
under brutal apartheid management structures. They> have resisted
every step of the way, each time seeing thousands> imprisoned,
murdered, displaced, and millions utterly subjugated and> exploited
as the Zionist project continues toward the ultimate goal of>
eliminating them in all forms but nostalgia.> > When armed struggle
becomes material necessity> > In the face of all of this violence,
armed resistance organizations> have risen up and established
themselves amongst the people, whether> they be Fatah, the PFLP, the
DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas,> or others. These groups, and
the violence they employ, did not come to> exist in a vacuum. Rather,
they are the result of decades of brutal> colonial violence, and the
culmination of Palestinian efforts to> liberate themselves from it.>
Post by NefeshBarYochai
The tactics they employ on the ground are the culmination of this
same> struggle. These groups chose to undergo operations they
determined may> advance their liberatory struggle. Many outside of
Palestine, and even> Palestinians themselves, may have disagreements
with these tactics, or> on a grander scale, disagreements with the
core principles and> ideologies of one or several of the groups
deploying them. For those> of us in the Western Left, however,
removed from the reality of> on-the-ground struggle, this cannot mean
that we undermine the very> legitimacy of armed struggle itself.> >
Hamas is a key example of this. Like them or not, the efforts they>
have waged and continue to wage have made more of a material impact>
toward the liberation of Palestine than anything any of us in the
West> will ever make. They are taking on the brutal violence of
colonial> power and waging a campaign of armed struggle that has, at
the current> moment, with coordination with other resistance
factions, made the> Zionist colony more of a pariah than it has ever
been on a global> stage and shattered the image of military
invincibility and overall> stability it has spent decades
cultivating. Countless years of> struggle have culminated in this
flashpoint.> > The path forward, as history has repeatedly shown,
will be largely> forged through the armed struggle of resistance
factions on the> ground. Their very survival depends on it, and it
continues to> challenge and erode the power of the Zionist entity
itself.> > Palestinian armed resistance has forced the Zionist
project to wage an> increasingly violent campaign that is sharpening
contradictions in> such a way as to lead to its continued unraveling.
As the masses in> the imperial core, specifically those of the United
States, come to> realize that their interests are at odds with the
interests of the> Zionist project and their government leaders who
are sustaining the> project’s ongoing genocide, the traditional
support base the project> relies on has eroded. In its place is an
ever-increasing mass standing> in firm support of Palestinians,
rather than their colonizers.> > In Palestine, the Palestinian
struggle for liberation has developed> what can be called a “Popular
Cradle” of resistance — a state of unity> and cohesion that has
developed between the Palestinian armed> resistance and broader
Palestinian society. That “popular cradle,” as> the Palestinian Youth
Movement has so aptly described it, has worked> as an organ of the
liberation struggle by conceptualizing resistance> as both a normal
and necessary state of being. This has led to a> reality where the
resistance is sustained by the masses themselves,> who support them
and readily accept the consequences of their> continued fight for
liberation.> > That armed struggle, a material necessity, is reaping
material> results, even in spite of mass violence, crackdowns, and a
campaign of> outright genocide. In Gaza specifically, that very
struggle in no> small part led to the withdrawal of Zionist settlers
from the> territory which forced Zionist planners to rework how they
went about> their occupation of Gaza. The struggle has kept Israeli
Occupation> Forces from entering Jenin and other refugee camps across
historic> Palestine without serious consequence. In many ways, the
resistance> struggle has been a key element of continued Palestinian
survival.> > Moving past the question> > The question of whether we
condemn Hamas is more than just a question> of condemnation. At its
core, we are being asked to disavow decolonial> violence altogether —
to support Palestinians only when they are> perfect victims or only
when the groups waging liberatory struggle> align with the values of
our ideologies and fraternal parties. It is a> question that acts as
a trap and misses the point entirely.> > We cannot make the mistake
of engaging seriously with such an> obfuscation. It is on us,
especially those of us on the Left, to> understand that the core
driver of the violence we are seeing is and> always has been Zionist
settler colonialism. This cycle of violence is> perpetuated not by
the colonized, as they seek to liberate themselves> from the state of
total subjugation and brutal reality of genocidal> liquidation, but
by the Zionist project and those advancing its> interests.> > The
question we have to ask ourselves, and indeed answer, is not> whether
we condemn Hamas, but whether we condemn a settler colonial> regime
that makes armed struggle necessary for survival.> >
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/do-you-condemn-hamas/> > > But when
"armed struggle" devolves into the widespread raping of women and
hostages, the assault and murder of infants, and on and on and
on...it's impossible to have any sympathy for the usually masked
bunch of non-uniformed thugs doing it. These same thugs have send
thousands and thousands of rockets onto Israeli soil, not to mention
causing dozens of suicide bombers to blow up buses usually full of
non-combatants such as women and children. So, now that Israel had
said, in effect, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I fully support Israel's ongoing
Gaza initiative and condemn fully ANY nation or group NOT supporting
IsraelWHen my ancestors came to Canada in the 1800s, they left the
"Old Country" behind, never to return. I wish some other ethnic
groups would do the same...leave the squabbles BEHIND and stop waving
the old flags over here.
Israel (Jews) have STOLEN the land. They colonized Palestine over the
course of past century expelling the natives.
Israel is a more modern creation but no different than e.g. USA. It's
a situation in which bunch of people moved into someone else's
homeland and claiming it for their own.
But that's not all, in fact it's only a portion of the entire problem.
You see, after stealing most of Palestine from the natives (Christians
and Moslems) the world actually acknowledged the Jewish theft and
seizures and legalized it, recognizing their colonial state, the Israel.
But the world also said, the non-colonized part of Palestine should be free too.
World = UN.
But the sneaky Jews have occupied the remaining part of Palestine jn
1967 and have been holding people there under military occupation,
continuing to build Jewish settlements in lands that do not legally
belong to Israel, thus committing ethnic cleansing and crimes and
abusing the Moslems and Christians.
Why don't they just fuck off back to their stolen piece of Palestine ie Israel?
Why are they occupying someone else's land for more than 57 years?
You know what's occupation? Germans were occupied in 1945-1949 they
had no rights in that period. It's a severe punishment.
Ask them (the Jews) what is it that they even want, what is their end
goal and you'll realize they're not interested in peace but conquest.
Your parents should demand a refund of all the school taxes they have
ever paid for you. Obviously, you failed to learn ANYTHING.
🏳️.
--
"And off they went, from here to there,
The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair"
-- Traditional
Bill Sloman
2024-06-07 05:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>

Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.

An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 07:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Bill Sloman
2024-06-07 11:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Hamas is definitely disagreeable. Cursitor Doom seems to think that
there's something "neo-Liberal" about not liking murderous terrorists.

We know he like preposterous conspiracy theories. Presumably he's got
one about the murderous antics of Hamas.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
bitrex
2024-06-07 15:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Hamas is definitely disagreeable. Cursitor Doom seems to think that
there's something "neo-Liberal" about not liking murderous terrorists.
We know he like preposterous conspiracy theories. Presumably he's got
one about the murderous antics of Hamas.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
North Korea, Russia, and China are looking on with envious eyes as to
how much firepower the US can help Israel put onto civilian targets,
they're like "Hey! that was supposed to be our job!"

They're taking notes on the "advanced tactics" being used in Gaza such
as "Today's neighborhood is grid square E4, take a squad in there, kick
down the doors of every home and office and shoot anything that moves."

For all the trillions of taxpayer dollars that have been poured into the
"science" of "modern warfare" it should come as no surprise that
counter-insurgency tactics haven't fundamentally changed a bit since My
Lai in 1968. Money well-spent...
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 16:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Hamas is definitely disagreeable. Cursitor Doom seems to think that
there's something "neo-Liberal" about not liking murderous terrorists.
We know he like preposterous conspiracy theories. Presumably he's got
one about the murderous antics of Hamas.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
North Korea, Russia, and China are looking on with envious eyes as to
how much firepower the US can help Israel put onto civilian targets,
they're like "Hey! that was supposed to be our job!"
They're taking notes on the "advanced tactics" being used in Gaza such
as "Today's neighborhood is grid square E4, take a squad in there, kick
down the doors of every home and office and shoot anything that moves."
Well, it does kind of nullify America's moral authority!
Perhaps you can tell us why the US supplies all these armaments to Israel
effectively for free? I mean, supplying them at cost would be bad enough,
given the purposes to which they're being put.
Post by bitrex
For all the trillions of taxpayer dollars that have been poured into the
"science" of "modern warfare" it should come as no surprise that
counter-insurgency tactics haven't fundamentally changed a bit since My
Lai in 1968. Money well-spent...
bitrex
2024-06-07 17:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Hamas is definitely disagreeable. Cursitor Doom seems to think that
there's something "neo-Liberal" about not liking murderous terrorists.
We know he like preposterous conspiracy theories. Presumably he's got
one about the murderous antics of Hamas.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
North Korea, Russia, and China are looking on with envious eyes as to
how much firepower the US can help Israel put onto civilian targets,
they're like "Hey! that was supposed to be our job!"
They're taking notes on the "advanced tactics" being used in Gaza such
as "Today's neighborhood is grid square E4, take a squad in there, kick
down the doors of every home and office and shoot anything that moves."
Well, it does kind of nullify America's moral authority!
America had moral authority? It probably peaked about 1865, if it did...
Post by Cursitor Doom
Perhaps you can tell us why the US supplies all these armaments to Israel
effectively for free? I mean, supplying them at cost would be bad enough,
given the purposes to which they're being put.
Geopolitical reasons, oil security, historical hedge against the
Soviets, religious reasons, some combination.

It isn't entirely out of the goodness of our own hearts, that's for
sure. But they're a heavily nuclear-armed nation that could wipe out
every major city in the Arab world in an afternoon.

If Israel still feels routinely insecure despite this ability I'm
unconvinced how much one more F-16 or 500 more tons of smart bombs is
going to help make a fundamental difference in that.

I can understand why Iran isn't interested in a conflict right now
they're probably all hands on deck trying to get their first atomic bomb
test scheduled. Maybe the government of Israel just figures they'll
fight a three-front war to nip that problem in the bud. I expect the US
will be on the hook for the ammo for that one, too.

It'll be interesting to see how many gruesome little wars the US can
provide the gear for simultaneously while its 900 year old leaders
regularly mumble some variant of "well, you see all those foreigners
hate us for our freedom" but when the foreigners keep finding "Made in
USA" on the bomb fragments in what used to be their house..
john larkin
2024-06-07 20:43:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:41:39 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
Hamas is definitely disagreeable. Cursitor Doom seems to think that
there's something "neo-Liberal" about not liking murderous terrorists.
We know he like preposterous conspiracy theories. Presumably he's got
one about the murderous antics of Hamas.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
North Korea, Russia, and China are looking on with envious eyes as to
how much firepower the US can help Israel put onto civilian targets,
they're like "Hey! that was supposed to be our job!"
They're taking notes on the "advanced tactics" being used in Gaza such
as "Today's neighborhood is grid square E4, take a squad in there, kick
down the doors of every home and office and shoot anything that moves."
Well, it does kind of nullify America's moral authority!
Perhaps you can tell us why the US supplies all these armaments to Israel
effectively for free?
Because the world needs more modern democracies.
john larkin
2024-06-07 14:49:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang
raping, hostage taking, and killing chidren.

Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 16:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
:-D He'll be glad to know he's finally made a friend here. ;-)
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-07 17:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis. I don't I doubt if s
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
:-D He'll be glad to know he's finally made a friend here. ;-)
It's not exactly a defense, and I doubt if it is motivated by any kind
of fellow-feeling
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
That's actually wrong, but Cursitor Doom won't have known enough about
the subject to have noticed.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
john larkin
2024-06-07 20:22:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over
a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 20:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
john larkin
2024-06-07 20:55:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 23:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily
a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people
who planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do
it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away from
the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be horrified at
the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who disagreed with them.
Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing new trend and it's not
confined solely to America.
john larkin
2024-06-08 00:45:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily
a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people
who planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do
it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away from
the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be horrified at
the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who disagreed with them.
Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing new trend and it's not
confined solely to America.
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR
GAZA.

Think about that one.
bitrex
2024-06-08 02:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily
a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people
who planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do
it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away from
the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be horrified at
the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who disagreed with them.
Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing new trend and it's not
confined solely to America.
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR
GAZA.
Think about that one.
Pretty surprised they haven't spotted you flying an American flag in SF
and hauled you away for your compulsory DEI training. What are the woke
police in that town even doing with all my donations!

<https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1798923854624199013>
john larkin
2024-06-08 03:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily
a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people
who planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do
it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away from
the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be horrified at
the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who disagreed with them.
Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing new trend and it's not
confined solely to America.
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR
GAZA.
Think about that one.
Pretty surprised they haven't spotted you flying an American flag in SF
and hauled you away for your compulsory DEI training. What are the woke
police in that town even doing with all my donations!
<https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1798923854624199013>
One of my neighbors is flying a giant American flag in front of his
house. Right-side up. Nice.

Another, a few houses down, is flying a Giants flag.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-08 07:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<snip>
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR
GAZA.
Think about that one.
The LGBT community feel themselves to be an oppressed minority,and are
expressing support for another oppressed minority.

It's a pretty crazy idea - the Palistinians in Gaza are oppressed
because they are occupying land that Israel would like to take over.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-08 09:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7.
As Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza
after over a decade and a half of living under total air, land,
and sea blockade, many found themselves having to face this
question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's
primarily a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and
the people who planned it need to be locked up someplace where
they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically
neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away
from the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be
horrified at the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who
disagreed with them. Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing
new trend and it's not confined solely to America.
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought and
opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by neo-Liberalism
and political correctness.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-08 11:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 23:27:38 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<snip>
Post by Cursitor Doom
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought and
opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by neo-Liberalism
and political correctness.
You are talking specifically about your freedom to post fatuous
nonsense. You'd like people to take you seriously and that isn't going
to happen.
--
Bill Sloman. Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
bitrex
2024-06-08 19:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought and
opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by neo-Liberalism
and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or is
still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.

I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call it
"conservatism", after all.

It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-08 20:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought and
opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by
neo-Liberalism and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or is
still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.
You missed out the Jews.
Post by bitrex
I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call it
"conservatism", after all.
It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
You'll be fine. You and me'll go on a good ol' fashioned lynchin' party -
don't worry, you'll soon get the flavor for it and the more you do, the
sweeter it gets.
;-)
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 11:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought and
opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by
neo-Liberalism and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or is
still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.
You missed out the Jews.
Post by bitrex
I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call it
"conservatism", after all.
It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
You'll be fine. You and me'll go on a good ol' fashioned lynchin' party -
don't worry, you'll soon get the flavor for it and the more you do, the
sweeter it gets.
;-)
Cursitor Doom doesn't understand that he is morally defective. If you
don't understand that being unpleasant to strangers is not a
constructive reaction to the unfamiliar, you can go in for this kind of
nonsense and not realise that other people find it repellent. Some of
them will notice that it is also illegal, and put you in prison.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 12:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought
and opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by
neo-Liberalism and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or is
still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.
You missed out the Jews.
Post by bitrex
I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call it
"conservatism", after all.
It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
You'll be fine. You and me'll go on a good ol' fashioned lynchin' party -
don't worry, you'll soon get the flavor for it and the more you do, the
sweeter it gets.
;-)
Cursitor Doom doesn't understand that he is morally defective. If you
don't understand that being unpleasant to strangers is not a
constructive reaction to the unfamiliar, you can go in for this kind of
nonsense and not realise that other people find it repellent. Some of
them will notice that it is also illegal, and put you in prison.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Sorry, Bill. I should have known that you as a Jew would be unduly
sensitive to my little joke (you didn't seem to notice the smiley). No
offence was intended, but if any were taken, I humbly apologise. Now can
we be friends again?
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 15:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought
and opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by
neo-Liberalism and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or is
still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.
You missed out the Jews.
Post by bitrex
I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call it
"conservatism", after all.
It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
You'll be fine. You and me'll go on a good ol' fashioned lynchin' party -
don't worry, you'll soon get the flavor for it and the more you do, the
sweeter it gets.
;-)
Cursitor Doom doesn't understand that he is morally defective. If you
don't understand that being unpleasant to strangers is not a
constructive reaction to the unfamiliar, you can go in for this kind of
nonsense and not realise that other people find it repellent. Some of
them will notice that it is also illegal, and put you in prison.
Sorry, Bill. I should have known that you as a Jew would be unduly
sensitive to my little joke (you didn't seem to notice the smiley).
I'm not actually Jewish. Sloman is a west country name - there are more
Slomans in the Taunton telephone directory than there are in the London
telephone directory, and my great-grandfather Sloman was born in Bristol
in 1850, though the family promptly got on the boat to Australia.

There is a family of Slomans in Melbourne who are Jewish, but their
grandparents were called Slominsky in Poland before they headed out to
Australia around 1870. One of my chemistry lecturers was a member of the
family (though he didn't have the Sloman surname).
Post by Cursitor Doom
No offence was intended, but if any were taken, I humbly apologise. Now can
we be friends again?
You find inviting Bitrex to join a lynching party to be an inoffensive joke?

Like I said, you are morally defective, and that is not something you
can apologise your way out of.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 16:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by bitrex
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
People, including women, are screaming and waving signs QUEERS FOR GAZA.
Think about that one.
I'm not talking about the ME. I'm talking about freedom of thought
and opinion in general and the fact that it's being eroded by
neo-Liberalism and political correctness.
Have there been any big revolutions in right-wing thought lately or
is still just primarily the usual long list of commies, queers, and
degenerates who need to be gotten rid of.
You missed out the Jews.
Post by bitrex
I think it's probably possible to suppress novel thought but I'm
uncertain there's much novel on offer I guess that's why they call
it "conservatism", after all.
It was all better in the old days, need to get back to the good ol'
days. Am I missing something?
You'll be fine. You and me'll go on a good ol' fashioned lynchin' party -
don't worry, you'll soon get the flavor for it and the more you do,
the sweeter it gets.
;-)
Cursitor Doom doesn't understand that he is morally defective. If you
don't understand that being unpleasant to strangers is not a
constructive reaction to the unfamiliar, you can go in for this kind
of nonsense and not realise that other people find it repellent. Some
of them will notice that it is also illegal, and put you in prison.
Sorry, Bill. I should have known that you as a Jew would be unduly
sensitive to my little joke (you didn't seem to notice the smiley).
I'm not actually Jewish. Sloman is a west country name - there are more
Slomans in the Taunton telephone directory than there are in the London
telephone directory, and my great-grandfather Sloman was born in Bristol
in 1850, though the family promptly got on the boat to Australia.
There is a family of Slomans in Melbourne who are Jewish, but their
grandparents were called Slominsky in Poland before they headed out to
Australia around 1870. One of my chemistry lecturers was a member of the
family (though he didn't have the Sloman surname).
Post by Cursitor Doom
No offence was intended, but if any were taken, I humbly apologise. Now
can we be friends again?
You find inviting Bitrex to join a lynching party to be an inoffensive joke?
Yes, yes I do. Unlike you, I don't go out of my way to upset people here.
AIUI, Bitrex is a white, urban Liberal. If he were black, I'd not have
posted that remark; wouldn't have dreamed of it.
I hope you're not one of those people who take offence vicariously on
behalf of others who may have taken no offence at all, because people like
that are just despicable - and responsible for so much that is wrong in
the world today.
Post by Bill Sloman
Like I said, you are morally defective, and that is not something you
can apologise your way out of.
I'll leave it to the silent majority to determine who's the moral
defective here as I don't believe you're in any position to judge, given
your reputation.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-08 07:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after
over a decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea
blockade, many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a
music festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily
a psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people
who planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do
it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He
wants them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang raping,
hostage taking, and killing chidren.
Wow, John. I never expected to see the day when you'd defend Bill Sloman!
Just by accident, he's sort of right once in a while.
Like a busted clock you mean? Yeah, I guess...
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
That's the peculiar thing about the new Leftists, though. These people
call themselves "Liberals" but in truth they couldn't be farther away from
the original meaning of the word. Classical Liberals would be horrified at
the solution of executing or imprisoning someone who disagreed with them.
Not so the neo Liberals. It's a deeply disturbing new trend and it's not
confined solely to America.
Not that Cursitor Doom can identify a single example of a "neo-liberal"
acting that way, probably because the label is one that has has been
invented by people who need a an imagined target to be rude about.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Bill Sloman
2024-06-08 07:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 20:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:43:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<snip>
Post by john larkin
His motivations are emotional, not logical. I see that a lot, smart
people doing very stupid things because their hormones dominate their
neurons.
As if John Larkin would have clue. He's an ignorant sucker who can be
flattered into believing total nonsense, and resents it when his
intellectual inadequacy is shown up.
--
Bill Sloman. Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Bill Sloman
2024-06-07 17:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:32:17 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by NefeshBarYochai
This question became seemingly ubiquitous following October 7. As
Palestinians defied the imagination, breaking out of Gaza after over a
decade and a half of living under total air, land, and sea blockade,
many found themselves having to face this question.
<snipped the rest of the tedious nonsense>
Everybody sane condemns Hamas. Murdering some 1300 people at a music
festival may be an ideological statement, but it's primarily a
psychopathic act of attention-getting terrorism, and the people who
planned it need to be locked up someplace where they can't do it again.
An idiot who tries to justify it as a political gestures is a menace,
and should be locked away on the same basis.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill has a bit of a problem with anyone who disagrees with him. He wants
them all either jailed or executed. How typically neo-Liberal!
I suppose there can be different opinions on the virtues of gang
raping, hostage taking, and killing children.
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
The Muslims don't describe Jew as heretics (which is pretty much a term
used only by Christians to describe other Christians). Jews and
Christian are seen as also people of the book - if not quite of the same
book as Muslims - and don't get persecuted by Muslims on theological
grounds.

Hamas doesn't make any kind of sense, any more than Donald Trump does.
Like him, they are performance artists who will do pretty much anything
to get the attention they crave.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
bitrex
2024-06-07 17:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
The Muslims don't describe Jew as heretics (which is pretty much a term
used only by Christians to describe other Christians). Jews and
Christian are seen as also people of the book - if not quite of the same
book as Muslims - and don't get persecuted by Muslims on theological
grounds.
Hamas doesn't make any kind of sense, any more than Donald Trump does.
Like him, they are performance artists who will do pretty much anything
to get the attention they crave.
But for better or worse if Trump's supporters violently butchered 1300
people in the US (not a difficult event to imagine...) every Democrat
would be demanding an immediate cease fire and asking for unity and
sending thoughts and prayers, not dispatching the strike fighters out to
level the Mar-a-Lago Club and half of Palm Beach along with it.

The right's politicians have spent 30 years playing to Republicans most
vicious and violent revenge fantasies while the Dems always tell me why
I can't have what I want because it might anger the wingnuts (they
always are.) the Dems could learn a bit about how to run a campaign from
them.
john larkin
2024-06-07 20:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
The Muslims don't describe Jew as heretics (which is pretty much a term
used only by Christians to describe other Christians). Jews and
Christian are seen as also people of the book - if not quite of the same
book as Muslims - and don't get persecuted by Muslims on theological
grounds.
Hamas doesn't make any kind of sense, any more than Donald Trump does.
Like him, they are performance artists who will do pretty much anything
to get the attention they crave.
But for better or worse if Trump's supporters violently butchered 1300
people in the US (not a difficult event to imagine...) every Democrat
would be demanding an immediate cease fire and asking for unity and
sending thoughts and prayers, not dispatching the strike fighters out to
level the Mar-a-Lago Club and half of Palm Beach along with it.
The right's politicians have spent 30 years playing to Republicans most
vicious and violent revenge fantasies while the Dems always tell me why
I can't have what I want because it might anger the wingnuts (they
always are.) the Dems could learn a bit about how to run a campaign from
them.
Tribal ranting is always easier than thinking.
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-07 17:53:35 UTC
Permalink
On 6/7/24 16:49, john larkin wrote:
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2024-06-07 20:35:55 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.

Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?

One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.

In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.

Better cooks too.
Edward Rawde
2024-06-07 20:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
Post by john larkin
Better cooks too.
john larkin
2024-06-07 21:01:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:51:24 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
Gosh, what a jerk.
bitrex
2024-06-07 22:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:51:24 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
Gosh, what a jerk.
Religion and atheism are probably somewhat tangential issues to the
state of "being a jerk", which tends to develop based on experiences
that begin in very early childhood, well before a person is able to
grasp what either term means very well.

That is to say I'm skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power to
put the jerk in anyone who wasn't more-or-less already there, and I'm
skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power to un-jerk anyone who
showed up that way, already.
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-07 22:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:51:24 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
Gosh, what a jerk.
Religion and atheism are probably somewhat tangential issues to the
state of "being a jerk", which tends to develop based on experiences
that begin in very early childhood, well before a person is able to
grasp what either term means very well.
That is to say I'm skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power to
put the jerk in anyone who wasn't more-or-less already there, and I'm
skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power to un-jerk anyone who
showed up that way, already.
Yes, that's probably true.

Who was it that said: "Kill them all, god will know his own!". Some
-presumably religious- crusader commander? Now there's a jerk.

Jeroen Belleman
bitrex
2024-06-08 00:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 16:51:24 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
Gosh, what a jerk.
Religion and atheism are probably somewhat tangential issues to the
state of "being a jerk", which tends to develop based on experiences
that begin in very early childhood, well before a person is able to
grasp what either term means very well.
That is to say I'm skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power
to put the jerk in anyone who wasn't more-or-less already there, and
I'm skeptical religion or atheism alone has the power to un-jerk
anyone who showed up that way, already.
Yes, that's probably true.
Who was it that said: "Kill them all, god will know his own!". Some
-presumably religious- crusader commander? Now there's a jerk.
Jeroen Belleman
Incidentally, a significant amount of the rancor surrounding the debate
on abortion hinges on the "nature" of the transition from not-life to
life and from not-person to person.

Richard Dawkins pointed out that it doesn't make much logical sense to
call a clump of cells a few moments after conception a "person" and it
doesn't make much sense to call a baby 1 second before birth a clump of
cells, but that implies there must have been an exact moment at some
point over the 9 months of gestation that a transition from not-person
to person occurred. Which also makes no sense.

Interestingly, there seems to be much less intense debate over the
process of death, even though pretty much all the same conundrums with
respect to binary transitions being nonsense happens there too, just in
reverse order!

Anyway, in summary: Birth is nonsense. Death is also nonsense. Thank u
for coming to my TED talk.
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-07 21:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.

Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.

I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.

Jeroen Belleman
Edward Rawde
2024-06-07 21:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Jeroen Belleman
bitrex
2024-06-07 22:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
Edward Rawde
2024-06-07 22:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England
Already lived there on two different occasions for a total of about six years.
Post by bitrex
you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't vote
or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
bitrex
2024-06-07 22:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England
Already lived there on two different occasions for a total of about six years.
Well the whole area is full of intelligent, pragmatic, religion-averse
bastards so...
bitrex
2024-06-07 22:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England
Already lived there on two different occasions for a total of about six years.
Well the whole area is full of intelligent, pragmatic, religion-averse
bastards so...
To be fair a bunch of them call themselves "liberals"..
john larkin
2024-06-07 22:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont and don't know anyone like that. Maybe you hang out
with a different crowd.
Edward Rawde
2024-06-07 23:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
Post by john larkin
and don't know anyone like that. Maybe you hang out
with a different crowd.
john larkin
2024-06-08 00:42:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.

I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.

I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people seem
to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Edward Rawde
2024-06-08 01:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.
I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.
I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people seem
to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Well your response to my reference to https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM was pretty nasty in my view.
john larkin
2024-06-08 01:59:25 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:18:20 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.
I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.
I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people seem
to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Well your response to my reference to https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM was pretty nasty in my view.
BR is dead, so I didn't offend him.

He sounded smug and nasty to me.
Edward Rawde
2024-06-08 02:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:18:20 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.
I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.
I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people seem
to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Well your response to my reference to https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM was pretty nasty in my view.
BR is dead, so I didn't offend him.
I don't think he would have been offended even if he were still alive.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bertrand+russell+message+to+future+generations
Post by john larkin
He sounded smug and nasty to me.
But did you take a moment to take in anything he said? Or did you just let your emotional hormones get the better of your neurones
like the rest of us are capable of doing at times?
john larkin
2024-06-08 02:37:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 22:11:58 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:18:20 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative, who has
no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think women shouldn't
vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my life
in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.
I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.
I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people seem
to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Well your response to my reference to https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM was pretty nasty in my view.
BR is dead, so I didn't offend him.
I don't think he would have been offended even if he were still alive.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bertrand+russell+message+to+future+generations
Post by john larkin
He sounded smug and nasty to me.
But did you take a moment to take in anything he said? Or did you just let your emotional hormones get the better of your neurones
like the rest of us are capable of doing at times?
I read the essay, and some others of his.

He did have a good attitude towards women.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-08 09:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 22:11:58 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:18:20 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:25:36 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because
they are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed
martyrs. So for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious
brainwashing. There is no afterlife. There is only this life.
Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature
of consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else
would morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings
about proper behavior to others. Obviously, there are
different religions with, possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
That's pretty much my experience too.
Come to New England you'll meet a different cut of conservative,
who has no need for God or the Bible to explain why they think
women shouldn't vote or homosexuals should be hung. "I just don't
like the fuckers."
I have lots of relatives in Mass and have spent many months of my
life in NYC and Vermont
Would I be correct in thinking that you've never been outside the
USA except perhaps for a short vacation?
I have spend a few months in France and a month working in Moscow.
Some weeks working in England, in Oxford, and a few weeks vacatining
in Ireland. Some time in Hamamatsu.
I guess Alaska and Hawaii don't count.
I have never encountered the sort of nastiness that other people
seem to have. Most people are friendly and decent.
Well your response to my reference to https://russell-j.com/0464NP.HTM
was pretty nasty in my view.
BR is dead, so I didn't offend him.
I don't think he would have been offended even if he were still alive.
https://www.google.com/search?
q=bertrand+russell+message+to+future+generations
Post by john larkin
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
He sounded smug and nasty to me.
But did you take a moment to take in anything he said? Or did you just
let your emotional hormones get the better of your neurones like the
rest of us are capable of doing at times?
I read the essay, and some others of his.
He did have a good attitude towards women.
So did this fellow:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/feb/07/david-carrick-jailed-life-
rapes-met-police-officer

;-)
bitrex
2024-06-07 21:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
Jeroen Belleman
I've been acquainted with some atheists whose main objection to the
concept of a God seemed to be that it would necessarily imply there was
an entity smarter and/or more powerful than them out there somewhere.

Certainly might rub a number of engineers the wrong way:

"Ok so here's the structure of the pyramid. First there's the animal
kingdom, and then there's the degenerate people. and then there's the
good people. and then there's all the other engineers (who are
themselves better people than non-engineers), and then there's me at the
top of the engineers. And then...well...that's about it. that's where
the capstone is I guess."
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-07 22:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Oh! That's nonsense. Religion is a human invention, much like
father Christmas and the tooth fairy. The difference is that
many people never get over it.
Religion has no right to claim to be the source of morality!
Morality stems from a desire to cooperate to our mutual benefit.
Religion never even comes into it.
I see no clear tendency of religious people to be nicer. I've
seen quite a few who were real bastards.
Jeroen Belleman
I've been acquainted with some atheists whose main objection to the
concept of a God seemed to be that it would necessarily imply there was
an entity smarter and/or more powerful than them out there somewhere.
[...]

Again, that has nothig to do with religion. Some people do
need to believe they are better than others. Maybe in some
way, some of them are! We all have our qualities and our
blind spots.

Jeroen Belleman
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 23:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing. There is
no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
My experience is the complete opposite.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-08 11:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 19:53:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Until you understand the origin of the universe and the nature of
consciousness, you can't know.
You can be pretty sure that primitive creation myths aren't going to be
helpful.
Post by john larkin
Religion is human's reason to have morality. Morality leads to
enlightment and a kind, just, productive society. Where else would
morality and justice come from?
Try reading some Spinoza.
Post by john larkin
One interpretation of religion is our collective feelings about proper
behavior to others. Obviously, there are different religions with,
possibly, genetic components.
Religions are a political systems, and not a a particularly constructive
example of the breed.
Post by john larkin
In my personal experience, religious people are nicer than atheists.
Better cooks too.
Except that you also think that Donald Trump has common sense. Your
judgement isn't wonderful.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Mike Monett VE3BTI
2024-06-07 21:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do this
lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past this one, and
that you are immortal.
--
MRM
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-07 21:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do this
lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past this one, and
that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no
afterlife, just as there was no forelife. There is no soul.
My existence is the result of an uninterrupted sequence of
incredibly improbable events, going back billions of years
into the past, and I will cease to exist, never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.

While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not
afraid of being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife
is just another of those weird religious ideas.

Jeroen Belleman
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-07 23:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing. There
is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do this
lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of those
weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life. And
that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find the
prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-08 08:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they are
heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So for
Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing. There
is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do this
lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of those
weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life. And
that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find the
prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?

Jeroen Belleman
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-08 09:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-08 10:51:50 UTC
Permalink
[Snip!]
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
This whole thread has been OT from the start, but OK, fair enough.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2024-06-08 14:45:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.

Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-08 17:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?

Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2024-06-08 19:55:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"

They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.

There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
bitrex
2024-06-08 20:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
The "RNA world" hypothesis is that RNA is a very special molecule, the
"killer app" that bootstrapped life.

Turns out that while the ribosome both synthesizes proteins and is made
of proteins, RNA does a lot of the heavy lifting. It can synthesize
proteins on its own outside of the ribosome but it's just not as good.
And it can function as an enzyme, though not as good as many other
enzymes. It can store information but DNA is a better solution for
eukaryotic cells.

It's a jack-of-all trades from the solution space that took 500 million
years to hit on but once it was hit on life was off and running.
john larkin
2024-06-08 20:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
The "RNA world" hypothesis is that RNA is a very special molecule, the
"killer app" that bootstrapped life.
There are lots of people who want that to be true (never mind the
details) because they don't want to admit that other things might be
true.

Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
bitrex
2024-06-09 02:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
The "RNA world" hypothesis is that RNA is a very special molecule, the
"killer app" that bootstrapped life.
There are lots of people who want that to be true (never mind the
details) because they don't want to admit that other things might be
true.
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
I tend to be of the opinion that actionable scientific theories of
either how to get life to bootstrap from non-life in a lab environment,
or how to make a machine emulate the significantly human qualities of a
mind, will remain frustratingly elusive for the foreseeable future.
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-09 08:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
The "RNA world" hypothesis is that RNA is a very special molecule, the
"killer app" that bootstrapped life.
There are lots of people who want that to be true (never mind the
details) because they don't want to admit that other things might be
true.
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
I tend to be of the opinion that actionable scientific theories of
either how to get life to bootstrap from non-life in a lab environment,
or how to make a machine emulate the significantly human qualities of a
mind, will remain frustratingly elusive for the foreseeable future.
I'm with Dijkstra: Asking if a computer can think makes as much sense
as asking whether a submarine can swim.

Jeroen Belleman
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 10:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
You could substitute "Liberals" for "scientists" here and it would still
make perfect sense.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 12:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
You could substitute "Liberals" for "scientists" here and it would still
make perfect sense.
Since it didn't make sense in the first place - science isn't about
"approval" but about consistency with the rest of science, Cursitor Doom
is just advertising his ignorance here.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 13:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
You could substitute "Liberals" for "scientists" here and it would
still make perfect sense.
Since it didn't make sense in the first place - science isn't about
"approval" but about consistency with the rest of science, Cursitor Doom
is just advertising his ignorance here.
Er, no. It's about the systematic study of nature and the pursuit of
Truth. We're already seeing the damage that 'consistency with the rest of
science' is having on our economic life thanks to all that climate
claptrap that you and others falsely claim is settled science.
Post by Bill Sloman
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 15:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
You could substitute "Liberals" for "scientists" here and it would
still make perfect sense.
Since it didn't make sense in the first place - science isn't about
"approval" but about consistency with the rest of science, Cursitor Doom
is just advertising his ignorance here.
Er, no. It's about the systematic study of nature and the pursuit of
Truth. We're already seeing the damage that 'consistency with the rest of
science' is having on our economic life thanks to all that climate
claptrap that you and others falsely claim is settled science.
It's definitely settled science. You don't know enough about the subject
to form a useful opinion.

The people who broadcast the propaganda that you are echoing aren't that
silly, but they are making a lot of money out of digging up fossil
carbon and selling it as fuel, and it's worth spending some of it on
cheap propaganda that is good enough to fool suckers like you and John
Larkin.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 16:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't
approve of.
You could substitute "Liberals" for "scientists" here and it would
still make perfect sense.
Since it didn't make sense in the first place - science isn't about
"approval" but about consistency with the rest of science, Cursitor
Doom is just advertising his ignorance here.
Er, no. It's about the systematic study of nature and the pursuit of
Truth. We're already seeing the damage that 'consistency with the rest
of science' is having on our economic life thanks to all that climate
claptrap that you and others falsely claim is settled science.
It's definitely settled science. You don't know enough about the subject
to form a useful opinion.
The people who broadcast the propaganda that you are echoing aren't that
silly, but they are making a lot of money out of digging up fossil
carbon and selling it as fuel, and it's worth spending some of it on
cheap propaganda that is good enough to fool suckers like you and John
Larkin.
Nonsense. Fortunately, the truth is emerging from under all the lies. More
and more people are realising climate change is a complete and utter scam.
There is no cause for concern. There is no need for 'action' of any kind.
It's just a complete, stinking, pile of crap.


Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 12:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<snip>
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
The "RNA world" hypothesis is that RNA is a very special molecule, the
"killer app" that bootstrapped life.
There are lots of people who want that to be true (never mind the
details) because they don't want to admit that other things might be
true.
And aren't supported by any evidence at all.
Post by john larkin
Nature has a rude habit of doing things that scientists didn't approve
of.
Science is process of studying what exists, and making sense of it.
"Approving" of what they find isn't part of the process.

"Soapy Sam" Wilberforce didn't approve of Darwin's theoryu of evolution,
but he was theologian rather than a scientist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Wilberforce

Huxley made mince meat of him.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-08 20:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because
they are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed
martyrs. So for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no
afterlife, just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My
existence is the result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly
improbable events, going back billions of years into the past, and
I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid
of being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another
of those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an
after-life. And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I
actually find the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be
like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion
on this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many times. In as far
as the brain is a chemical machine, and that chemistry is basically a
manifestation of quantum mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a
level too deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that that is
not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard to
explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
And then the Leftists come along and decide that although it works, it
works badly and they can fix it - or at least improve it somehow - simply
by implementing policies which defy nature in an act of ultimate 'magical
thinking'.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 12:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<snip>
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard to
explore an infinite space serially.
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
And then the Leftists come along and decide that although it works, it
works badly and they can fix it - or at least improve it somehow - simply
by implementing policies which defy nature in an act of ultimate 'magical
thinking'.
That's Cursitor Doom being an ignorant rightist. The fundamental
difference between leftist and rightist is that leftists think that
society can be improved, and rightists think that the risk of changing
society are too great to make it a practical proposition.

When twits like Cursitor Doom claim that some left wing proposal
"defies nature" all they means is that they don't understand it, and
aren't prepared to learn enough about it to understand why the leftist
like the idea.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
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Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-08 21:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Hmm. I see DNA as a template for making molecular machines,
enzymes and such, that do useful things for living organisms.
Useful things such as transforming nutrients into suitable
energy-carrying chemicals or building blocks for cell components.
Pumps to move stuff into or out of cell compartments, and many
other functions needed to make a living cell thrive.

DNA doesn't do much by itself. It's the molecular machines that
do the work.
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
Hmm. When I design a circuit, I don't randomly jump through
solution space. I start with something simple, then identify
limitations and add or change things to address them. I may
add bootstraps or cascodes to reduce the effect of parasitic
capacitance. Add buffers to reduce load or output impedance
effects. Add symmetry to tackle thermal or offset issues.
Change or add components to tweak phase/frequency responses.
Move components around to reduce parasitics, or to profit
from some fortuitous beneficial one. And so on.

Basically I'll choose some promising starting point and then
try to move forward through the solution space, exploring
interesting branches on the way. Rarely I'll throw everything
out and start over.

It's still a serial process. I can't see much of the space at
once. Maybe you can. So much the better for you.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2024-06-09 00:01:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 23:59:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Hmm. I see DNA as a template for making molecular machines,
enzymes and such, that do useful things for living organisms.
Useful things such as transforming nutrients into suitable
energy-carrying chemicals or building blocks for cell components.
Pumps to move stuff into or out of cell compartments, and many
other functions needed to make a living cell thrive.
DNA doesn't do much by itself. It's the molecular machines that
do the work.
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
Hmm. When I design a circuit, I don't randomly jump through
solution space. I start with something simple, then identify
limitations and add or change things to address them. I may
add bootstraps or cascodes to reduce the effect of parasitic
capacitance. Add buffers to reduce load or output impedance
effects. Add symmetry to tackle thermal or offset issues.
Change or add components to tweak phase/frequency responses.
Move components around to reduce parasitics, or to profit
from some fortuitous beneficial one. And so on.
Basically I'll choose some promising starting point and then
try to move forward through the solution space, exploring
interesting branches on the way. Rarely I'll throw everything
out and start over.
That's incremental design, which is necessary, but it doesn't create
entirely new circuits or products.

Some big companies stick to tweaking what they know, and get crushed
by upstarts in dorm rooms.

Some big companies have futurists and fellows whose job is to consider
possibilities. Somebody at Boeing is thinking about what airplanes (or
whatever) might look like 30 years from now. I have friends at
Raytheon and ASML whose job is to do that, think far away from where
they are now.

I like to imagine planting a grenade inside my brain and blowing bits
all over the possible solution space, to start a zillion parallel
processors. Let that soak for a while.

There are think tanks like HRL that do just that.

Most engineers are uncomfortable with uncertainty and confusion so
latch onto a design concept ASAP, preferably something already
sanctioned somewhere, and buckle down to implementing.
Post by Jeroen Belleman
It's still a serial process. I can't see much of the space at
once. Maybe you can. So much the better for you.
It takes some practice to be willing to be confused for a while. It
helps to be a bit autistic, to not much care what other people think.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 12:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 23:59:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
[...]
Basically I'll choose some promising starting point and then
try to move forward through the solution space, exploring
interesting branches on the way. Rarely I'll throw everything
out and start over.
That's incremental design, which is necessary, but it doesn't create
entirely new circuits or products.
"Rarely I'll throw everything out and start over". That isn't
incremental design. You don't do that - or if you have you haven't
talked about it. I've commented on this before.
Post by john larkin
Some big companies stick to tweaking what they know, and get crushed
by upstarts in dorm rooms.
Some big companies have futurists and fellows whose job is to consider
possibilities. Somebody at Boeing is thinking about what airplanes (or
whatever) might look like 30 years from now. I have friends at
Raytheon and ASML whose job is to do that, think far away from where
they are now.
But the comapany superstructure means that it doesn't happen often.

ASML was a spin-off from Philips, and took their human factors
department with them. I applied for one job at ASML and made it to
interview, but didn't seem to fit the pattern that their personnel
officers expected,
Post by john larkin
I like to imagine planting a grenade inside my brain and blowing bits
all over the possible solution space, to start a zillion parallel
processors. Let that soak for a while.
What a silly idea.
Post by john larkin
There are think tanks like HRL that do just that.
Not exactly. They sell expertise, and planting a grenade inside an
expert's brain would destroy that expertise. Brainstorming is a rather
different sort of activity.
Post by john larkin
Most engineers are uncomfortable with uncertainty and confusion so
latch onto a design concept ASAP, preferably something already
sanctioned somewhere, and buckle down to implementing.
If you know of a solution that will work, you'd be mad not to use it.
I had a good idea in 1978 that a programmable logic device to make it
practical. I got my hands on one in 1993 and it ended up in

Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. “A
microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical
stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a
thermistor sensor” Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996)
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeroen Belleman
It's still a serial process. I can't see much of the space at
once. Maybe you can. So much the better for you.
It takes some practice to be willing to be confused for a while.
You seem to be confused most of the time.
Post by john larkin
It helps to be a bit autistic, to not much care what other people think.
And some people think that you confuse tinkering with a circuit with
circuit design.

Somebody thinks that a two-transistor emitter-coupled monostable is a
"horrendous mess" can expect to earn that kind of reputation.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 21:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because
they are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed
martyrs. So for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to
do this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life
past this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no
afterlife, just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My
existence is the result of an uninterrupted sequence of
incredibly improbable events, going back billions of years into
the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid
of being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just
another of those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an
after-life. And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy.
I actually find the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be
like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for
expansion on this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many times. In as
far as the brain is a chemical machine, and that chemistry is
basically a manifestation of quantum mechanics, I agree. In practice,
QM is just a level too deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I
believe that that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string. That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
Hmm. I see DNA as a template for making molecular machines, enzymes and
such, that do useful things for living organisms. Useful things such as
transforming nutrients into suitable energy-carrying chemicals or
building blocks for cell components.
Pumps to move stuff into or out of cell compartments, and many other
functions needed to make a living cell thrive.
DNA doesn't do much by itself. It's the molecular machines that do the
work.
Post by john larkin
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard to
explore an infinite space serially.
Hmm. When I design a circuit, I don't randomly jump through solution
space. I start with something simple, then identify limitations and add
or change things to address them. I may add bootstraps or cascodes to
reduce the effect of parasitic capacitance. Add buffers to reduce load
or output impedance effects. Add symmetry to tackle thermal or offset
issues.
Change or add components to tweak phase/frequency responses. Move
components around to reduce parasitics, or to profit from some
fortuitous beneficial one. And so on.
Basically I'll choose some promising starting point and then try to move
forward through the solution space, exploring interesting branches on
the way. Rarely I'll throw everything out and start over.
It's still a serial process. I can't see much of the space at once.
Maybe you can. So much the better for you.
Jeroen Belleman
Jeroen, this may be of interest to you....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hsby62
Jeroen Belleman
2024-06-10 10:51:24 UTC
Permalink
On 6/9/24 23:36, Cursitor Doom wrote:
[...]
Post by Cursitor Doom
Jeroen, this may be of interest to you....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hsby62
A podcast about paranormal phenomena? Not really, or rather,
really not. Why did you think so?

Jeroen Belleman
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-10 13:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by Cursitor Doom
Jeroen, this may be of interest to you....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hsby62
A podcast about paranormal phenomena? Not really, or rather,
really not. Why did you think so?
Jeroen Belleman
It must have been someone else on this group that expressed an interest in
the subject, then. Just ignore it and apologies for any confusion.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 11:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:30:11 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 09:54:42 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Mike Monett VE3BTI
Post by Jeroen Belleman
[...]
Post by john larkin
Actually, Hamas makes sense. They send Jews to hell because they
are heretics, and send Muslims to heaven to be blessed martyrs. So
for Hamas, killing is always win-win.
Some kind of sense, given that there is neither heaven, nor hell.
Religion, islam in particular, is only pernicious brainwashing.
There is no afterlife. There is only this life. Don't waste it.
Jeroen Belleman
Learn how to do soul travel. It is the most important thing to do
this lifetime. It will give you absolute proof there is life past
this one,
and that you are immortal.
I don't know what soul travel is, but I'm sure there is no afterlife,
just as there was no forelife. There is no soul. My existence is the
result of an uninterrupted sequence of incredibly improbable events,
going back billions of years into the past, and I will cease to exist,
never to come back,
when some essential part of my body fails.
While I'm certainly not looking forward to dying, I'm not afraid of
being dead. The need to believe in an afterlife is just another of
those weird religious ideas.
Jeroen Belleman
Well, I'm not religious at all but am convinced there's an after-life.
And that's not just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy. I actually find
the prospect deeply concerning. I'd much rather be like you in outlook!
How did you come to be convinced of the existence of an afterlife,
and what kind of experience do you expect to have?
Jeroen Belleman
I'm afraid that's *way* too big and off-topic a subject for expansion on
this forum!
Designing electronics has obviously suggestions of quantum
consciousness, and even Einstein thought that QM was spooky.
Don't give up on miracles quite yet.
You have referred to quantum effects in the brain many
times. In as far as the brain is a chemical machine, and
that chemistry is basically a manifestation of quantum
mechanics, I agree. In practice, QM is just a level too
deep in the abstraction stack. Somehow I believe that
that is not how you see it. Would you elaborate?
DNA and RNA and other things aren't flat linear molecules as the
cartoons suggest. They are twisted and tangled into writhing balls. So
any sequence gets continuously and randomly rubbed against the rest of
the string.
But nothing happens to the DNA in the process.
Post by john larkin
That's a quantum cross-correlation machine.
It would be if the DNA came out different. It doesn't.
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Much of technology, electronics in particular, is a miracle,
though not in the mystical or religious sense.
I like the Barrie Gilbert essay, "Where do little circuits come from?"
They are all out there in the infinite solution space, and it's hard
to explore an infinite space serially.
It's not difficult, just time consuming. You work outwards from the area
you have already explored - you don't, but people like Barry Gilbert and
Bob Widlar did. It's what science is about, but you don't anything about
that either.
Post by john larkin
There's nothing mystical about a universe that obviously works.
Our current model of the universe depends on lots of dark matter -
though we don't what it is and have never seen anything that might
qualify - small black holes might fill the gap, but we haven't
identified any of them either. The first LIGO result showed us two
unexpectedly small black holes fusing, but not small enough to fit the
dark mater profile.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
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