Discussion:
Challenger
(too old to reply)
john larkin
2024-06-09 02:42:08 UTC
Permalink
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X

This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.

It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Jeff Layman
2024-06-09 07:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.

On that subject, the only fatal crash of Concorde took place just after
take-off almost 25 years after it started service. By your criterion,
supersonic flight would have been blamed for the crash, and its purpose
deemed unnecessary, even though the accident had nothing to do with
supersonic flight, or perhaps even flight itself. Those Wright Brothers
have a lot to answer for!

It is human nature to explore, even at the extremes. Where would America
be if it wasn't for the Vikings, Columbus, and others like them?
--
Jeff
Nick Hayward
2024-06-09 10:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
On that subject, the only fatal crash of Concorde took place just after
take-off almost 25 years after it started service. By your criterion,
supersonic flight would have been blamed for the crash, and its purpose
deemed unnecessary, even though the accident had nothing to do with
supersonic flight, or perhaps even flight itself. Those Wright Brothers
have a lot to answer for!
It is human nature to explore, even at the extremes. Where would America
be if it wasn't for the Vikings, Columbus, and others like them?
Hey - don't forget the Africans.
john larkin
2024-06-09 15:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
Dead is dead. Optimistically, they died instantly but probably not.
Post by Jeff Layman
On that subject, the only fatal crash of Concorde took place just after
take-off almost 25 years after it started service. By your criterion,
supersonic flight would have been blamed for the crash, and its purpose
deemed unnecessary, even though the accident had nothing to do with
supersonic flight, or perhaps even flight itself. Those Wright Brothers
have a lot to answer for!
It is human nature to explore, even at the extremes. Where would America
be if it wasn't for the Vikings, Columbus, and others like them?
What is there to "explore", sealed in a metal can with a few
portholes?

Robots are better "explorers" of "outer space" than people. Nobody
much cares when they die.

Read the book.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 17:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
Dead is dead. Optimistically, they died instantly but probably not.
I would guess it must have been very much like being exposed to a nuclear
blast. So basically frazzled to death over several seconds. Not nice.
john larkin
2024-06-09 18:47:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
Dead is dead. Optimistically, they died instantly but probably not.
I would guess it must have been very much like being exposed to a nuclear
blast. So basically frazzled to death over several seconds. Not nice.
The crew may have been alive when the cabin hit the water. The
recovery of the remains and the forensics was grim. I'm shocked that
NASA ever flew another shuttle.

The tiles and the SRBs and the external tanks and the engines were all
known hazards. Columbia was the nail in the coffin.

Two shuttles out of five were lost. NASA estimated that the loss rate
would be 1 in 100,000 flights.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 22:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
Dead is dead. Optimistically, they died instantly but probably not.
I would guess it must have been very much like being exposed to a
nuclear blast. So basically frazzled to death over several seconds. Not
nice.
The crew may have been alive when the cabin hit the water. The recovery
of the remains and the forensics was grim. I'm shocked that NASA ever
flew another shuttle.
The tiles and the SRBs and the external tanks and the engines were all
known hazards. Columbia was the nail in the coffin.
Two shuttles out of five were lost. NASA estimated that the loss rate
would be 1 in 100,000 flights.
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2 in
the atmosphere, then.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-11 14:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2 in
the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.

The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 - it's
run by Australia's CSIRO

https://capegrim.csiro.au/

and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather than
northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as big.

NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that - they
dated back to before they'd lost any.

You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking the
published the measurements consistently lying to the public for more
than sixty years.

Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-11 22:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:21:52 +0100, Jeff Layman
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2 in
the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.
The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 - it's
run by Australia's CSIRO
https://capegrim.csiro.au/
and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather than
northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as big.
NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that - they
dated back to before they'd lost any.
You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking the
published the measurements consistently lying to the public for more
than sixty years.
Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Sorry, Bill. I've got better things to do than get drawn into another of
your pointless pissing contests.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-12 05:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:21:52 +0100, Jeff Layman
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2 in
the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.
The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 - it's
run by Australia's CSIRO
https://capegrim.csiro.au/
and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather than
northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as big.
NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that - they
dated back to before they'd lost any.
You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking the
published the measurements consistently lying to the public for more
than sixty years.
Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
Sorry, Bill. I've got better things to do than get drawn into another of
your pointless pissing contests.
Lying about the science evidence demonstrating that climate change is
happening is a well-paid commercial activity. You aren't remotely good
enough at it to get paid for it, but that doesn't seem to stop you
hoping that you might.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-12 17:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:21:52 +0100, Jeff Layman
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2
in the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.
The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 -
it's run by Australia's CSIRO
https://capegrim.csiro.au/
and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather than
northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as big.
NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that - they
dated back to before they'd lost any.
You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking the
published the measurements consistently lying to the public for more
than sixty years.
Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
Sorry, Bill. I've got better things to do than get drawn into another
of your pointless pissing contests.
Lying about the science evidence demonstrating that climate change is
happening is a well-paid commercial activity. You aren't remotely good
enough at it to get paid for it, but that doesn't seem to stop you
hoping that you might.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Nice try, Bill, but I'm not falling for it. I know a barb when I see it
and I'm not getting hooked. Try plying your trade on some other poor sap.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-13 08:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:21:52 +0100, Jeff Layman
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical CO2
in the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.
The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 -
it's run by Australia's CSIRO
https://capegrim.csiro.au/
and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather than
northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as big.
NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that - they
dated back to before they'd lost any.
You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking the
published the measurements consistently lying to the public for more
than sixty years.
Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
Sorry, Bill. I've got better things to do than get drawn into another
of your pointless pissing contests.
Lying about the science evidence demonstrating that climate change is
happening is a well-paid commercial activity. You aren't remotely good
enough at it to get paid for it, but that doesn't seem to stop you
hoping that you might.
Nice try, Bill, but I'm not falling for it. I know a barb when I see it
and I'm not getting hooked. Try plying your trade on some other poor sap.
You've gotten well hooked by climate change denial propaganda, and
thrashing around pretending to be sceptical is just more of your futile
attempts to evade the point. The barb is deeply embedded. You probably
need a brain implant to get off the hook, and you'd probably reject
functional brain tissue as incompatible with your right-wing goof genome.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-16 16:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:21:52 +0100, Jeff Layman
So about as reliable a statistic as their figures for historical
CO2 in the atmosphere, then.
Not really. We've been observing the CO2 level in the atmosphere
continuously since 1958 and Manua Loa wasn't NASA.
The entirely independent Cape Grim observatory got going in 1976 -
it's run by Australia's CSIRO
https://capegrim.csiro.au/
and presents much the same story. It's southern hemisphere rather
than northern hemisphere so that the annual fluctuation isn't as
big.
NASA estimate of how many shuttles' they'd lose were just that -
they dated back to before they'd lost any.
You objections to the thoroughly reliable climate data involve your
demented conspiracy theory which has everybody involved in taking
the published the measurements consistently lying to the public for
more than sixty years.
Nobody even thought that anyone would bother until around 1990, when
global warming hit statistical significance, and the fossil carbon
extraction industry woke up the threat to their long term cash flows.
Sorry, Bill. I've got better things to do than get drawn into another
of your pointless pissing contests.
Lying about the science evidence demonstrating that climate change is
happening is a well-paid commercial activity. You aren't remotely
good enough at it to get paid for it, but that doesn't seem to stop
you hoping that you might.
Nice try, Bill, but I'm not falling for it. I know a barb when I see it
and I'm not getting hooked. Try plying your trade on some other poor sap.
You've gotten well hooked by climate change denial propaganda, and
thrashing around pretending to be sceptical is just more of your futile
attempts to evade the point. The barb is deeply embedded. You probably
need a brain implant to get off the hook, and you'd probably reject
functional brain tissue as incompatible with your right-wing goof genome.
Nope. Still not tempted. You need to up your game, Bill.

Joe Gwinn
2024-06-09 22:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:29:13 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
That's a very jaundiced and negative view. Firstly, they weren't in
space when they died; they were at 46000 feet, which was below the
operational height of Concorde.
Dead is dead. Optimistically, they died instantly but probably not.
I would guess it must have been very much like being exposed to a nuclear
blast. So basically frazzled to death over several seconds. Not nice.
The crew may have been alive when the cabin hit the water. The
recovery of the remains and the forensics was grim. I'm shocked that
NASA ever flew another shuttle.
The tiles and the SRBs and the external tanks and the engines were all
known hazards. Columbia was the nail in the coffin.
Two shuttles out of five were lost. NASA estimated that the loss rate
would be 1 in 100,000 flights.
Hmm. I recall estimates of one in four from the days of Feynman and
the investigation into the Challenger loss. Maybe that was the post
crash estimate, but I don't think even NASA would think that one in
10^5 was realistic, as that rate is more like civil aviation in the
1950s and 1960s (with accidents like the Electra).

.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.boeing.com/content/dam/boeing/boeingdotcom/company/about_bca/pdf/statsum.pdf>

Joe Gwinn
Bill Sloman
2024-06-09 11:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
None that John Larkin can understand.

His mud-skipper ancestor couldn't see the point of exploring the area
beyond his local mud-flats either.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-09 13:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
john larkin
2024-06-09 15:17:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.

Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.

The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Cursitor Doom
2024-06-09 16:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose
here either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared about
power, money, and politics. The investigations after the disaster, the
same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers to literally
shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was dying of cancer.
What did the venerable Feynman have to do with this?
john larkin
2024-06-09 17:09:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 16:31:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/
198217661X
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don?t really think that we have any purpose
here either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared about
power, money, and politics. The investigations after the disaster, the
same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers to literally
shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was dying of cancer.
What did the venerable Feynman have to do with this?
It's in the book.

O-rings and ice water.
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-09 17:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
bitrex
2024-06-10 16:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.

In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-10 18:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.

Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)

Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
bitrex
2024-06-11 02:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."

I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.

Surely "normalization of deviance" counts as "misconduct" of some fashion.

As for "evil capitalism" that seems like a strange thing to look for in
the Shuttle program given that IIRC it's one of those projects that's
pointed to as a quintessential example of a government make-work project.

It surely made some paydays for some contractors but they were mostly
companies like Thiokol, Rockwell and NAA who were heavily into the
military-industrial pie to begin with. The design was compromised from
the start due to DOD requirements for a thousand miles of crossrange for
once-around polar missions to scare the Soviets, which it likely did,
but it made a lousy space freighter or pure science vessel.

Under Lord Musk's guidance spaceflight has likely never been more
profitable, or more generally uninteresting to the public-at-large.
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-11 03:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."
I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.
Maybe if you read the book, you’ll understand. The conclusions could hardly
be more different, given the basic facts of the case. Boisjoly et al. and
the Rogers commission are only a fraction of the story.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
bitrex
2024-06-11 05:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."
I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.
Maybe if you read the book, you’ll understand. The conclusions could hardly
be more different, given the basic facts of the case. Boisjoly et al. and
the Rogers commission are only a fraction of the story.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I was able to at least find a summary, 620 pages about a disaster I'm
barely old enough to remember is a tall ask at this time.

<https://web.mit.edu/esd.83/www/notebook/The%20Challenger%20Launch%20Decision_1.pdf>

I think I somewhat understand the thrust of the argument, that nobody in
management really believed themselves to be taking risks of the kind the
public later perceived them to have been taking.

There was no particular person who was actively like "Welp there's
probably a decent chance the crew won't make it but we're going anyway
because if we don't <some easily enumerable bad thing will happen>", the
consequences to everyone involved were far too high to ever be actively
cavalier.

They had their processes and they followed the processes. Yeah Thiokol
engineers balked when asked about this particular launch but I expect
they balked relatively regularly it's no skin off their ass to say "no
go", but at the end of the day as a NASA-person your job is to fire
rockets with people on them from time to time, either have a manned
space program or don't. Can always find reasons not to launch.

It seems there were chain-of-communications problem that may have
prevented engineers at Thiokol from emphasizing that this situation was
significantly different than others they may have had reservations about
before, but it's unclear to me if there was any one person at NASA at
the time who had the authority to say "shut it all down, now!", even if
those engineers had been able to do so effectively.
john larkin
2024-06-11 05:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by bitrex
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."
I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.
Maybe if you read the book, you’ll understand. The conclusions could hardly
be more different, given the basic facts of the case. Boisjoly et al. and
the Rogers commission are only a fraction of the story.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I was able to at least find a summary, 620 pages about a disaster I'm
barely old enough to remember is a tall ask at this time.
<https://web.mit.edu/esd.83/www/notebook/The%20Challenger%20Launch%20Decision_1.pdf>
I think I somewhat understand the thrust of the argument, that nobody in
management really believed themselves to be taking risks of the kind the
public later perceived them to have been taking.
There was no particular person who was actively like "Welp there's
probably a decent chance the crew won't make it but we're going anyway
because if we don't <some easily enumerable bad thing will happen>", the
consequences to everyone involved were far too high to ever be actively
cavalier.
They had their processes and they followed the processes. Yeah Thiokol
engineers balked when asked about this particular launch but I expect
they balked relatively regularly it's no skin off their ass to say "no
go", but at the end of the day as a NASA-person your job is to fire
rockets with people on them from time to time, either have a manned
space program or don't. Can always find reasons not to launch.
The Thiokol engineers said not to launch below 56 degrees F, or the
SRB o-rings wouldn't seal. The temp was 19 that morning.
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-11 12:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by bitrex
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."
I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.
Maybe if you read the book, you’ll understand. The conclusions could hardly
be more different, given the basic facts of the case. Boisjoly et al. and
the Rogers commission are only a fraction of the story.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I was able to at least find a summary, 620 pages about a disaster I'm
barely old enough to remember is a tall ask at this time.
<https://web.mit.edu/esd.83/www/notebook/The%20Challenger%20Launch%20Decision_1.pdf>
I think I somewhat understand the thrust of the argument, that nobody in
management really believed themselves to be taking risks of the kind the
public later perceived them to have been taking.
There was no particular person who was actively like "Welp there's
probably a decent chance the crew won't make it but we're going anyway
because if we don't <some easily enumerable bad thing will happen>", the
consequences to everyone involved were far too high to ever be actively
cavalier.
They had their processes and they followed the processes. Yeah Thiokol
engineers balked when asked about this particular launch but I expect
they balked relatively regularly it's no skin off their ass to say "no
go", but at the end of the day as a NASA-person your job is to fire
rockets with people on them from time to time, either have a manned
space program or don't. Can always find reasons not to launch.
The Thiokol engineers said not to launch below 56 degrees F, or the
SRB o-rings wouldn't seal. The temp was 19 that morning.
They were nervous, rightly so. But it’s not the outside air temperature
that matters, it’s the temperature of the o-rings.

The main issue is that what NASA had was a developmental system, with all
sorts of unknowns, and they were trying to run it as though it was a
well-understood production system.

Apollo had delivered amazingly—men on the moon in 9 years, starting with
modified ICBMs! The cultural impact of that was very large—not only did it
fix the US’s Sputnik problem and reassure their allies (which was the point
of the exercise), but it changed everyone’s attitude towards the Earth
itself.

To my eye, that “Earthrise” photo has had more lasting influence than all
the trudging around up there.

Naturally—NASA being a big government agency and therefore having
pathological incentives—they reacted by asking for the sky: enough dough
for a permanent space station, a Mars mission, and a fleet of space trucks
to get all that stuff to and from orbit.

Under severe budget constraints (for NASA, at least), they canceled all of
it except the truck fleet. Then they got some fancy consultants
(Mathematica Inc., no relation to Wolfram & Co.) to make a plan for 60
launches per year using 6 shuttles, with mostly commercial payloads, so
that they could afford to build them.

Eventually they managed nine launches per year, mostly military, and
instead of being everyone’s idol and independently wealthy, they were
begging for money and firmly under the thumb of the Air Force.

Meanwhile, they were trying to learn how to make and run the spacecraft.
They did it by the book, with a very highly organized system of flight
reviews and engineering criteria that allowed them to apply uniform
standards of evidence and decision-making to a wildly multifarious effort.

The workings of this system, and the people who made it work so well almost
all the time, are what Vaughan’s book is about, and what makes it so
fascinating.

What bit them in the end was that Thiokol wasn’t able to show a good
statistical correlation between O-ring erosion and the calculated
temperature. It got worse at low temperature, of course, but there was this
one launch where the rings were at 80 degrees or something, yet which had
the largest erosion to date.

Least squares analysis is very sensitive to outliers, so that one data
point destroyed the calculated correlation. The procedure required firm
data to delay the launch, and Thiokol didn’t have it. That’s how you run a
well-understood production system: You learn by doing, and make adjustments
based on accumulated experience. They were very good at that.

Because the shuttle was really a developmental system, though, the
procedures for making those adjustments actually pushed the SRBs closer to
disaster with each anomaly.

I can’t do justice to it here, but the way this whole team of highly
competent people, who followed all the rules of the system conscientiously,
nevertheless caused a disaster, is a story right out of Greek tragedy.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
bitrex
2024-06-11 16:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became
acceptable to them."
I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.
Maybe if you read the book, you’ll understand. The conclusions could hardly
be more different, given the basic facts of the case. Boisjoly et al. and
the Rogers commission are only a fraction of the story.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I was able to at least find a summary, 620 pages about a disaster I'm
barely old enough to remember is a tall ask at this time.
<https://web.mit.edu/esd.83/www/notebook/The%20Challenger%20Launch%20Decision_1.pdf>
I think I somewhat understand the thrust of the argument, that nobody in
management really believed themselves to be taking risks of the kind the
public later perceived them to have been taking.
There was no particular person who was actively like "Welp there's
probably a decent chance the crew won't make it but we're going anyway
because if we don't <some easily enumerable bad thing will happen>", the
consequences to everyone involved were far too high to ever be actively
cavalier.
They had their processes and they followed the processes. Yeah Thiokol
engineers balked when asked about this particular launch but I expect
they balked relatively regularly it's no skin off their ass to say "no
go", but at the end of the day as a NASA-person your job is to fire
rockets with people on them from time to time, either have a manned
space program or don't. Can always find reasons not to launch.
The Thiokol engineers said not to launch below 56 degrees F, or the
SRB o-rings wouldn't seal. The temp was 19 that morning.
The Shuttle's raw reliability was likely about 1 vehicle loss in 100 and
it pushed the limits of the tech of the time so much it would probably
haven been difficult to get it much better than that that without
hundreds of flights to learn from. They did 135 launches with 2 losses,
par for the course.

If it hadn't been the O-rings and TPS it probably would have been one of
the dozens of other must-work systems on the ship. I think there had to
be some level of institutional delusion about what the fundamental
reliability of the thing was to have a program at all.

The list of anomalies from STS-1 is long, most of them minor, a couple
of them very severe. It was crazy to some degree to launch it the first
time and if it were built today it likely would've undergone years more
simulation and static testing but they felt they were at the limit of
what could be tested at the time with the technology and budget they had.

Here in 2024 God only knows how many Starships Mr. Musk is going to blow
up on test flights, before they figure it's safe enough to put anyone on.
Martin Brown
2024-06-11 14:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
I'm still inclined to believe that the suits pressured the engineers
into compliance with something that they were deeply uncomfortable with
- namely launching when the ambient temperature was so far below the
norm in Florida. They had a nationwide TV tie in and VIPs to impress.
The show must go on...

So they got a lot more of a spectacle than they had bargained for.

Likewise with the Columbia disaster where they essentially refused to
call in a favour off the military imaging kit operators that could have
looked at the vehicle's leading edge for signs of damage.

That time they convinced themselves that because it (foam impacts) had
happened before with no ill effects it would be OK again this time. ISTR
an intern was tasked with the first impact analysis. It did get
escalated but not far enough up the hierarchy to make a difference.

HST mirror by PE also suffered from a painstakingly exact measurement
process that created a fabulously smooth polished mirror using very
sophisticated methods but precisely figured to the wrong shape.

These things happen due to human fallibility and plain bad luck. The
backup Kodak mirror was correct in every detail but never flew.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.

Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.

It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
--
Martin Brown
Phil Hobbs
2024-06-11 16:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
I'm still inclined to believe that the suits pressured the engineers
into compliance with something that they were deeply uncomfortable with
- namely launching when the ambient temperature was so far below the
norm in Florida. They had a nationwide TV tie in and VIPs to impress.
The show must go on...
So they got a lot more of a spectacle than they had bargained for.
Likewise with the Columbia disaster where they essentially refused to
call in a favour off the military imaging kit operators that could have
looked at the vehicle's leading edge for signs of damage.
That time they convinced themselves that because it (foam impacts) had
happened before with no ill effects it would be OK again this time. ISTR
an intern was tasked with the first impact analysis. It did get
escalated but not far enough up the hierarchy to make a difference.
HST mirror by PE also suffered from a painstakingly exact measurement
process that created a fabulously smooth polished mirror using very
sophisticated methods but precisely figured to the wrong shape.
These things happen due to human fallibility and plain bad luck. The
backup Kodak mirror was correct in every detail but never flew.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
Read the book if you have the chance.

Space exploration has little value outside its cultural impact.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Bill Sloman
2024-06-12 05:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
I'm still inclined to believe that the suits pressured the engineers
into compliance with something that they were deeply uncomfortable with
- namely launching when the ambient temperature was so far below the
norm in Florida. They had a nationwide TV tie in and VIPs to impress.
The show must go on...
So they got a lot more of a spectacle than they had bargained for.
Likewise with the Columbia disaster where they essentially refused to
call in a favour off the military imaging kit operators that could have
looked at the vehicle's leading edge for signs of damage.
That time they convinced themselves that because it (foam impacts) had
happened before with no ill effects it would be OK again this time. ISTR
an intern was tasked with the first impact analysis. It did get
escalated but not far enough up the hierarchy to make a difference.
HST mirror by PE also suffered from a painstakingly exact measurement
process that created a fabulously smooth polished mirror using very
sophisticated methods but precisely figured to the wrong shape.
These things happen due to human fallibility and plain bad luck. The
backup Kodak mirror was correct in every detail but never flew.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
Read the book if you have the chance.
Space exploration has little value outside its cultural impact.
And this will continue to be true until we find something interesting.
The nature of exploration is that we don't know what we will find until
we find it.

Residents of Australian find it perfectly sensible that people kept
poking around the Pacific until Cooke found Australia and mapped enough
of it to suggests that it might be worth establishing a colony there.

Most the residents of North America with European ancestry would think
much the same about Columbus and his daft misconceptions about the size
of the earth, if they thought about the matter at all.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Martin Brown
2024-06-12 08:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Martin Brown
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
Read the book if you have the chance.
Space exploration has little value outside its cultural impact.
And this will continue to be true until we find something interesting.
The nature of exploration is that we don't know what we will find until
we find it.
OTOH we are much better equipped at remote sensing than they were. Our
robotics have now reached the point where they can do almost everything
that a man can do and they don't need feeding and air whilst in transit.
They also have multispectral imaging beyond what a human eye can see.
The vacuum of space is an incredibly hostile environment humans are far
too fragile to survive for long without a lot of support.

Sending humans to explore any of the interesting places in our solar
system is doomed to failure. At best it will be a "Big Brother" reality
TV show with real teeth. John you have been voted out of the spacecraft:
the airlock is over there. You are the weakest link - goodbye.

At worst we would contaminate a pristine unique independently evolved
biological environment with terrestrial micro organisms that hitch a
ride with us. A bit like introducing rats or hedgehogs onto remote
islands full of creatures that are unable to deal with such threats.
Post by Bill Sloman
Residents of Australian find it perfectly sensible that people kept
poking around the Pacific until Cooke found Australia and mapped enough
of it to suggests that it might be worth establishing a colony there.
Most the residents of North America with European ancestry would think
much the same about Columbus and his daft misconceptions about the size
of the earth, if they thought about the matter at all.
There isn't anywhere remotely habitable that we can see within striking
distance at the moment. North pole of the moon might be OK for a small
lunar research base in the same way as we have in Antarctica and the far
side of the moon would be a nice radio quiet spot for radio telescopes
to use frequencies that are impossible from the Earth. That is about it.

Going to Mars with current technologies will merely result in the deaths
of the astronauts that we send. NASA doesn't deliberately set out to do
one way suicide missions (unlike some vocal proponents of manned Mars
exploration).

The main purpose of the ISS was to distract redundant Russian rocket
scientists away from ICBM design (and I suppose it worked for a while).

Most of the "research" done on that low gravity platform wouldn't pass
muster at a high school science fair. It has fostered international
co-operation though - especially during the period where the US had to
rely on Russian space vehicles for transit to and from the ISS.
--
Martin Brown
Bill Sloman
2024-06-12 15:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Martin Brown
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
Read the book if you have the chance.
Space exploration has little value outside its cultural impact.
And this will continue to be true until we find something interesting.
The nature of exploration is that we don't know what we will find
until we find it.
OTOH we are much better equipped at remote sensing than they were. Our
robotics have now reached the point where they can do almost everything
that a man can do and they don't need feeding and air whilst in transit.
What they can't do is notice the unexpected.
Post by Martin Brown
They also have multispectral imaging beyond what a human eye can see.
The vacuum of space is an incredibly hostile environment humans are far
too fragile to survive for long without a lot of support.
The "hostility" is perfectly credible, and well documented. It can kill
you even faster than an arctic or antarctic winter, if something goes wrong.
Post by Martin Brown
Sending humans to explore any of the interesting places in our solar
system is doomed to failure.
Twaddle. It has to be done carefully, and you'd need a very good reason
to do it at all, but an "interesting place" has to be interesting for a
reason.
Post by Martin Brown
At best it will be a "Big Brother" reality
the airlock is over there. You are the weakest link - goodbye.
That's an idiotic proposition. If you want to make money out of
revolting inter-person competitions, you won't want to spend a lot of
time and money getting the contestants out to some extra-planetary
location, which lying about where they were would be so much cheaper.
Post by Martin Brown
At worst we would contaminate a pristine unique independently evolved
biological environment with terrestrial micro organisms that hitch a
ride with us. A bit like introducing rats or hedgehogs onto remote
islands full of creatures that are unable to deal with such threats.
It's easy enough to avoid.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Bill Sloman
Residents of Australian find it perfectly sensible that people kept
poking around the Pacific until Cooke found Australia and mapped
enough of it to suggests that it might be worth establishing a colony
there.
Most the residents of North America with European ancestry would think
much the same about Columbus and his daft misconceptions about the
size of the earth, if they thought about the matter at all.
There isn't anywhere remotely habitable that we can see within striking
distance at the moment. North pole of the moon might be OK for a small
lunar research base in the same way as we have in Antarctica and the far
side of the moon would be a nice radio quiet spot for radio telescopes
to use frequencies that are impossible from the Earth. That is about it.
With the advantages we can see today.There may be others we haven't
thought about yet.
Post by Martin Brown
Going to Mars with current technologies will merely result in the deaths
of the astronauts that we send. NASA doesn't deliberately set out to do
one way suicide missions (unlike some vocal proponents of manned Mars
exploration).
It would be likely to result in the deaths of some the astronauts sent.
It's highly unlikely to kill off the lot.
Post by Martin Brown
The main purpose of the ISS was to distract redundant Russian rocket
scientists away from ICBM design (and I suppose it worked for a while).
Most of the "research" done on that low gravity platform wouldn't pass
muster at a high school science fair. It has fostered international
co-operation though - especially during the period where the US had to
rely on Russian space vehicles for transit to and from the ISS.
Perhaps. The cube-sats now being sent up seem to be a very mixed bunch,
if I'm to believe what my acquaintances tell me, and make money in
variety of different ways, all of which sound plausible. No people yet.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
john larkin
2024-06-11 16:13:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 15:58:00 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
I'm still inclined to believe that the suits pressured the engineers
into compliance with something that they were deeply uncomfortable with
- namely launching when the ambient temperature was so far below the
norm in Florida. They had a nationwide TV tie in and VIPs to impress.
The show must go on...
So they got a lot more of a spectacle than they had bargained for.
Likewise with the Columbia disaster where they essentially refused to
call in a favour off the military imaging kit operators that could have
looked at the vehicle's leading edge for signs of damage.
That time they convinced themselves that because it (foam impacts) had
happened before with no ill effects it would be OK again this time. ISTR
an intern was tasked with the first impact analysis. It did get
escalated but not far enough up the hierarchy to make a difference.
HST mirror by PE also suffered from a painstakingly exact measurement
process that created a fabulously smooth polished mirror using very
sophisticated methods but precisely figured to the wrong shape.
These things happen due to human fallibility and plain bad luck. The
backup Kodak mirror was correct in every detail but never flew.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.
Big institutions tend to be immoral. Money and power dominate honest
engineers.

Remember "Don't be evil" ?
Post by Martin Brown
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
We coud have put robots on the moon in 1969. The astronauts were
mostly passive passengers anyhow.
Bill Sloman
2024-06-12 05:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 15:58:00 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by bitrex
Post by Phil Hobbs
Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report. For
the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
Challenger Launch Decision”.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
power but more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
become circular and self-referential.
In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
"Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
lives before, and probably will again
Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
tragic.
I'm still inclined to believe that the suits pressured the engineers
into compliance with something that they were deeply uncomfortable with
- namely launching when the ambient temperature was so far below the
norm in Florida. They had a nationwide TV tie in and VIPs to impress.
The show must go on...
So they got a lot more of a spectacle than they had bargained for.
Likewise with the Columbia disaster where they essentially refused to
call in a favour off the military imaging kit operators that could have
looked at the vehicle's leading edge for signs of damage.
That time they convinced themselves that because it (foam impacts) had
happened before with no ill effects it would be OK again this time. ISTR
an intern was tasked with the first impact analysis. It did get
escalated but not far enough up the hierarchy to make a difference.
HST mirror by PE also suffered from a painstakingly exact measurement
process that created a fabulously smooth polished mirror using very
sophisticated methods but precisely figured to the wrong shape.
These things happen due to human fallibility and plain bad luck. The
backup Kodak mirror was correct in every detail but never flew.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
;)
Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
highly.
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.
Big institutions tend to be immoral. Money and power dominate honest
engineers.
They aren't even immoral. They just have inflexible procedures.
Post by john larkin
Remember "Don't be evil" ?
Why bother? It's just one more corporate slogan.
Post by john larkin
Post by Martin Brown
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
We could have put robots on the moon in 1969. The astronauts were
mostly passive passengers anyhow.
But the robots wouldn't have been up to much.

Having people with names and faces up there made the newspaper and TV
reports much more interesting to the general public and created the
cultural effect sought.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
bitrex
2024-06-11 16:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to launch
with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the end.
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that our
robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
The shuttle was a dual-use vehicle, it could've made a formidable weapon
in a pinch. The Soviets thought so, at least.

The large crossrange from the delta wings made once-around space bomber
missions north from Vandenburg feasible, though IIRC they never launched
from there.

The DOD didn't "force" the delta wings, exactly, crossrange was a desire
of theirs that NASA eventually came around to as beneficial in general,
it made another abort mode possible and simplified design
calculations/simulations to be tractable with the tech available at the
time.

But it's likely if they couldn't have come to a path of convergent
evolution then the project wouldn't have gone forward at all.
bitrex
2024-06-11 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Martin Brown
ISTR at least one Morton Thiokol engineer was begging them not to
launch with it so cold but was over ruled by more senior people in the
end.
Rocket launches and landings are intrinsically dangerous. On this I am
inclined to agree with JL - unless and until we find something that
our robotic and AI kit cannot do we shouldn't be sending people into
space.
It was the *only* way to explore the moon back in 1969 but not any more...
The shuttle was a dual-use vehicle, it could've made a formidable weapon
in a pinch. The Soviets thought so, at least.
The Soviets were very concerned about the possibility of a decapitating
US first strike in the late 70s and early 80s and took Reagan to be a
madman (they weren't half-wrong.)

At least an ICBM launch is unambiguous, what do you do when a scientific
vehicle/bomb truck launches northbound during a period of tension, with
its payload concealed.

What's going on? Is it a test flight? Are they launching a spy
satellite? Are they carrying a rack of nuclear bunker-busters to drop
straight on our heads? Do we assume that and try to shoot it down and
maybe start a war that way, or wait for the first strike to land on us?
Unpleasant choices...
Bill Sloman
2024-06-11 12:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
either.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
They weren't being killed intentionally.
Post by john larkin
Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
that could truly help.
In your singularly inexpert opinion.
Post by john larkin
The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers ruined their careers
to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
dying of cancer.
So what. That's how the world works, and clown like you are lot of the
problem.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
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john larkin
2024-06-11 01:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
story.
It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
This is even crazier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Transport

"A mission to Mars launching in 2033, the report concluded, would need
to have life support systems and propulsion tested by 2022, which is
unlikely.[5] The report estimated that the total cost of the elements
needed for the Mars mission, including SLS, Orion, Gateway, DST and
other logistics, at $120.6 billion through fiscal year 2037.[5]"

Of course, NASA always blows budgets big-time.
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