[OT] The old must die for the young

[Scott Stephens]

The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,

It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.

Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.

Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Bill Sloman]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

The US medical system does seem to conform to your prescription at the
moment. The price you pay for any medical procedure is more or less doubled
by the malpractice insurance component, which goes to support a totally
unproductive cloud of lawyers, and is further inflated by the over-testing
and over-treatment mandated by the demand that any medical treatment be
visibly defensible against any potential malpractice suit.

The less prosperous uninsured consequently can't afford potentially
life-saving medical procdures and die younger than their western European
equivalents, dragging down the U.S. life expectancy figures, which are
notoroiously poor for an advanced industrial country, and even poorer if you
look at your less prosperous minority groups.

-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Fred Bloggs]

Post by Bill Sloman
The US medical system does seem to conform to your prescription at the
moment. The price you pay for any medical procedure is more or less doubled
by the malpractice insurance component, which goes to support a totally
unproductive cloud of lawyers, and is further inflated by the over-testing
and over-treatment mandated by the demand that any medical treatment be
visibly defensible against any potential malpractice suit.
The less prosperous uninsured consequently can't afford potentially
life-saving medical procdures and die younger than their western European
equivalents, dragging down the U.S. life expectancy figures, which are
notoroiously poor for an advanced industrial country, and even poorer if you
look at your less prosperous minority groups.

That is a bunch of baloney- it is better nutrition and therapeutic drugs
that are responsible for the longevity and not "life-saving medical
procedures" by which I assume you mean surgery- buys only a few years.
The disparity between life expectancy of poor versus rich results from
education level and not economics, and this has been established
conclusively time and again. Something does need to be done about tort
reform for medical malpractice- the impetus for monetary judgments
against liable defendants is to drive them out of the industry thereby
forcing industry to rise to a higher standard of practice as well as
licensing practitioners, and not to force liability insurance rates up.
The liability awards consist of two parts, a compensatory award and a
punitive award. The compensatory award is usually computed fairly with
the plaintiff presenting reasonably good financial substantiation of the
amount. The punitive award is the big one and it is understood that
nearly 100% goes to the plaintiff's lawyers. If they put a reasonable
limit on this one, then plaintiffs will have difficulty finding
representation. The answer to this dilemma will probably be to remove
the profit incentive from the process- this means no lawyers and no
courts. Once again the federal government has to set up a national
medical arbitration administration, and this can be done by contracting
work to the legal profession, which provides full representation for the
plaintiff at taxpayer expense, defendant must supply their own
representation, compensatory awards made in accordance with traditional
standards, no punitive damages whatsoever, government administrative
lawyers on hourly wage scale as usual. Liability insurance rates will
plummet. Federal government taxes the entire medical profession to cover
cost of the administration, licensing authority raises practice
standards, Congress does their usually poor job of administration fiscal
oversight- a more perfect world may result.

[John Woodgate]

That is a bunch of baloney- it is better nutrition and therapeutic drugs that
are responsible for the longevity and not "life-saving medical procedures" by
which I assume you mean surgery- buys only a few years.

That's too broad, Fred. Consider surgery on neonatals to correct patent
ductus arteriosus ('hole in the heart) and similar developmental defects
(see 'Catch 22', for example).

The disparity between
life expectancy of poor versus rich results from education level and not
economics, and this has been established conclusively time and again.

Very largely true in Britain as well.

Something
does need to be done about tort reform for medical malpractice- the impetus for
monetary judgments against liable defendants is to drive them out of the
industry thereby forcing industry to rise to a higher standard of practice as
well as licensing practitioners, and not to force liability insurance rates up.
The liability awards consist of two parts, a compensatory award and a punitive
award. The compensatory award is usually computed fairly with the plaintiff
presenting reasonably good financial substantiation of the amount. The punitive
award is the big one and it is understood that nearly 100% goes to the
plaintiff's lawyers. If they put a reasonable limit on this one, then plaintiffs
will have difficulty finding representation. The answer to this dilemma will
probably be to remove the profit incentive from the process- this means no
lawyers and no courts. Once again the federal government has to set up a
national medical arbitration administration, and this can be done by contracting
work to the legal profession, which provides full representation for the
plaintiff at taxpayer expense, defendant must supply their own representation,
compensatory awards made in accordance with traditional standards, no punitive
damages whatsoever, government administrative lawyers on hourly wage scale as
usual. Liability insurance rates will plummet. Federal government taxes the
entire medical profession to cover cost of the administration, licensing
authority raises practice standards, Congress does their usually poor job of
administration fiscal oversight- a more perfect world may result.

In Uk we don't yet have quite so big problems with the legal eagles
^H^H^H^H^H^H vultures. But it's going that way, and we DO need to find a
sensible solution.

I often disagree with what you write, but this time you have it about
right. You are learning. (;-)

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:24:45 +0100, John Woodgate

Post by John Woodgate

That is a bunch of baloney- it is better nutrition and therapeutic drugs that
are responsible for the longevity and not "life-saving medical procedures" by
which I assume you mean surgery- buys only a few years.

That's too broad, Fred. Consider surgery on neonatals to correct patent
ductus arteriosus ('hole in the heart) and similar developmental defects
(see 'Catch 22', for example).

[snip]

Post by John Woodgate
I often disagree with what you write, but this time you have it about
right. You are learning. (;-)

Learning? No. He's already sharper than most lurkers here. It's
just that the "foam-from-mouth factor" often obscures the meat of the
topic.

...Jim Thompson

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
<***@example.com> wrote (in <qj8r60puqtmcglm7q1k2pgvgvigi2ergtk@
4ax.com>) about '[OT] The old must die for the young', on Fri, 2 Apr

Post by Jim Thompson
Learning? No.

Read on.

Post by Jim Thompson
He's already sharper than most lurkers here.

On circuit design, I agree. Not only good but fast. Is he cheap as well?
(;-) If so, that would falsify one of our basic engineering axioms!

I was referring to the sort of philosophy-politics-economics discussions
that we have here.

Post by Jim Thompson
It's
just that the "foam-from-mouth factor" often obscures the meat of the
topic.

Yes. Pity.

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:24:45 +0100, John Woodgate

Post by John Woodgate

That is a bunch of baloney- it is better nutrition and therapeutic drugs that
are responsible for the longevity and not "life-saving medical procedures" by
which I assume you mean surgery- buys only a few years.

That's too broad, Fred. Consider surgery on neonatals to correct patent
ductus arteriosus ('hole in the heart) and similar developmental defects
(see 'Catch 22', for example).

[snip]

Post by John Woodgate
I often disagree with what you write, but this time you have it about
right. You are learning. (;-)

Learning? No. He's already sharper than most lurkers here. It's
just that the "foam-from-mouth factor" often obscures the meat of the
topic.
...Jim Thompson

-------------
The number of people who live longer due to cheap public health
measures, like garbage pick-up and etc., versus the VERY few DA
babies means that your notions are distorted.

The society that fails to support its elderly have a youth that
will realize they have cut their own throat and that the society
they produced doesn't deserve their loyalty!

-Steve

[Bill Sloman]

Post by Fred Bloggs

Post by Bill Sloman
The US medical system does seem to conform to your prescription at the
moment. The price you pay for any medical procedure is more or less doubled
by the malpractice insurance component, which goes to support a totally
unproductive cloud of lawyers, and is further inflated by the over-testing
and over-treatment mandated by the demand that any medical treatment be
visibly defensible against any potential malpractice suit.
The less prosperous uninsured consequently can't afford potentially
life-saving medical procedures and die younger than their western

European

Post by Fred Bloggs

Post by Bill Sloman
equivalents, dragging down the U.S. life expectancy figures, which are
notoroiously poor for an advanced industrial country, and even poorer if you
look at your less prosperous minority groups.

That is a bunch of baloney- it is better nutrition and therapeutic drugs
that are responsible for the longevity and not "life-saving medical
procedures" by which I assume you mean surgery- buys only a few years.

I was actually thinking of the cocktail of beta-blocker, acetylcholine
inhibitor, angiotensin converting enzyme and diuretic that I swallow every
day, and will continue to swallow for the rest of my life, which is likely
to be appreciably longer in consequence. The procedures that checked me over
and lead my cardiologist to prescribe the drugs in the first place would
have been fairly expensive, if I'd not been covered by the Dutch health
insurance system - I got a second opinion in Australia, which wasn't covered
by medical insurance, and it wasn't cheap. If I'd meant life-saving surgical
procedures, I'd have said so - they do exist, but I do agree with you that
they don't save any significant number of years of life when averaged over
the population as a whole.

-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Bill Sloman
The US medical system does seem to conform to your prescription at the
moment. The price you pay for any medical procedure is more or less doubled
by the malpractice insurance component, which goes to support a totally
unproductive cloud of lawyers, and is further inflated by the over-testing
and over-treatment mandated by the demand that any medical treatment be
visibly defensible against any potential malpractice suit.

If it ever becomes profitable to let people die, people are going to
start dying in commercial quantities.

Yep. If doctors and hospitals wouldn't honor a code of silence when it
comes to getting rid of the incompetent, people wouldn't cheer when
lawyers leech off the medical profession.

Then doctors, like police often do when confronted with instances of
atrocious abuse, decide they will punish the public by refusing to
effectively practice their trade. "If you are going to cry, we'll give
you something to cry about".

Post by Bill Sloman
The less prosperous uninsured consequently can't afford potentially
life-saving medical procdures and die younger than their western European
equivalents, dragging down the U.S. life expectancy figures, which are
notoroiously poor for an advanced industrial country, and even poorer if you
look at your less prosperous minority groups.

Yep. I have heard several 1st hand accounts of how paramedics let the
poor/minorities die, by neglecting treatment. But in the two cases I'm
thinking of, it was probably the prejudice of the 'medical
professionals' rather than systemic.

But what really scares me is what will happen when the baby-boomers
overload the system. Like the 'heat-wave deaths' in France, it is likely
something will begin killing off those the system can't keep its
promises to.

After all, the DOE and DOD has on numerous occasions evaded its
responsibility to those injured in work and combat.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[N. Thornton]

Post by Scott Stephens
If it ever becomes profitable to let people die, people are going to
start dying in commercial quantities.

It is. They are. Ever heard of junk food, and the many links between
what food one eats and whether one gets killed by the major diseases?
And ever notice how many millions get hit by them? Then theres
cigarettes, etc etc. Death and disease are big business.


Regards, NT

[Scott Stephens]

Post by N. Thornton

Post by Scott Stephens
If it ever becomes profitable to let people die, people are going to
start dying in commercial quantities.

It is. They are. Ever heard of junk food, and the many links between
what food one eats and whether one gets killed by the major diseases?
And ever notice how many millions get hit by them? Then theres
cigarettes, etc etc. Death and disease are big business.

Those are self-inflicted. I'm talking about the profit motive the
fed-thugs have to get you (dead) off Social Security and Medicare, and
the profit motive hospitals have to let you die rather than expend
resources, and the motive doctors have to spend as little time (and rare
expertise) as possible.

Without lawyers to sue, it would be very cheap to have 'accidents' and
defer medical care and treatments that could prolong life.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Jim Thompson]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

You must be a Democrat ;-)

...Jim Thompson

[Bob Stephens]

Post by Jim Thompson

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

You must be a Democrat ;-)
...Jim Thompson

Or a troll... No relation by the way.

Bob

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Jim Thompson

Post by Scott Stephens
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

You must be a Democrat ;-)
...Jim Thompson

Of course! My power to control the collective, to maximize their
consistency, equality and controllability, for their average best
interest is my main concern =)
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[John Larkin]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,

Since we elderly seniles are mostly supporting and employing gaggles
of lazy, unskilled young louts who pretend to work but mostly yap and
browse all day, we should clearly kill off the young ones before they
waste much more resources. We'll just keep the very few who are smart
and energetic, and teach them all we know.

Post by Scott Stephens
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

No need for expensive doctors: most of the really lethal stuff is
self-administered.

You sound like a young punk who resents people who have worked a long
time and accomplished something. The kind who smokes because "I never
want to live to be 50 anyhow." Check back in with us when you're 49.

John

[Scott Stephens]

Post by John Larkin
Since we elderly seniles are mostly supporting and employing gaggles
of lazy, unskilled young louts who pretend to work but mostly yap and
browse all day, we should clearly kill off the young ones before they
waste much more resources. We'll just keep the very few who are smart
and energetic, and teach them all we know.

You'll keep the few obsequious sycophants with well-padded knees, and
keep them deluded useful idiots. The competent and ambitious will be
degraded, dominated, or destroyed.

Post by John Larkin
No need for expensive doctors: most of the really lethal stuff is
self-administered.

Sex, drugs and rock-and-roll =)

Isn't it funny how the media sells everything with sex, defends
pornography as free speech, yet has draconian sex-offender laws and
vilifies perverts it has encouraged with "gate-way porn"? Isn't it funny
how any effective drug (ephedra, tryptophan, et.) is quickly outlawed
when pharmaceutical companies find similar ones profitable? How
cigarettes and alcohol are tolerated when the fed's get their share of
the loot? Gambling OK as long as the feds get their cut? Low level drug
pushers get busted (and replaced) and assets are confiscated to profit
police, the supply is kept low enough for high profits?

Vice is tolerated when it profits the government, and keeps the peasants
tolerably degraded and dominated.

Post by John Larkin
You sound like a young punk who resents people who have worked a long
time and accomplished something. The kind who smokes because "I never
want to live to be 50 anyhow." Check back in with us when you're 49.

I admire those that have accomplished difficult, great things, like
American freedom. I detest those that degrade and destroy them.

I'm the kind of middle-aged punk that is foaming-pissed over being
uncle-sam's peasant, who is constantly admonished of my obligation to
live for the collective. Who was told America was a meritocracy, not a
plutocracy. A "right" to medical benefits is an obligation of servitude
for those that must (resentfully) provide it, and it is a "right" for
the government to further invade the bodies of the public and assert the
obligation for the public to live for the state.

The US government is near 50% of the economy and 40% of the peasants
time is spent in their servitude. Perhaps I should just shut-up and be
grateful the government let me keep what money it has. I think the
government is a low-quality temporary employment agency whose main
customers are the multi-national corporations and the plutocracy that
owns them.

They have poisoned, even murdered their loyal employees in the past when
they decided it was too expensive to keep commitments to them.

Governments have killed 100's of millions of people in the last century,
every time "for their best interest".
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[John Larkin]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Larkin
Since we elderly seniles are mostly supporting and employing gaggles
of lazy, unskilled young louts who pretend to work but mostly yap and
browse all day, we should clearly kill off the young ones before they
waste much more resources. We'll just keep the very few who are smart
and energetic, and teach them all we know.

You'll keep the few obsequious sycophants with well-padded knees, and
keep them deluded useful idiots. The competent and ambitious will be
degraded, dominated, or destroyed.

That's not what's happening. The smart, speedy, creative, and
ambitious get the best jobs and, as they mature, will wind up owning
everything. I certainly don't want to hire "obsequious sycophants"; I
want people who have ideas and will carry them out with minimal
supervision. The sad problem is how to find useful, fulfilling work
for the less numerate, less skilled people in a world that is
increasingly automating (or exporting) their jobs out of existance.

John

[Bill Sloman]

Post by John Larkin

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Larkin
Since we elderly seniles are mostly supporting and employing gaggles
of lazy, unskilled young louts who pretend to work but mostly yap and
browse all day, we should clearly kill off the young ones before they
waste much more resources. We'll just keep the very few who are smart
and energetic, and teach them all we know.

You'll keep the few obsequious sycophants with well-padded knees, and
keep them deluded useful idiots. The competent and ambitious will be
degraded, dominated, or destroyed.

That's not what's happening. The smart, speedy, creative, and
ambitious get the best jobs and, as they mature, will wind up owning
everything.

You left out "well-connected". One of the many incidental felicities
of "Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth" ISBN
0-691-02898-2, was that in the process of destroying "The Bell Curve"
case that having a high IQ was all-important for success in Amercian
society, they made the point - not for the first time - that "who you
know" is slightly more important than what you know and what you can
do.

The book was published in 1996, but it is still available from Amazon
within 24 hours for $24.95 new, or down to $8 used. Well worth
reading.

I can't say I'm too worried about the influence of "who you know" -
I've had enough involvement with hiring and firing to know how
difficult it is to judge personality from the sort of information you
usually get when you hire somebody, and how poor personnel departments
are at assessing even the technical competence of candidates for
technically demanding jobs.

I am finding it personally irritating at the moment, because even
though I've been living in the Netherlands for ten years now, I don't
know enough of the right people to be able to get at any of the work I
ought to be doing ...

Post by John Larkin
I certainly don't want to hire "obsequious sycophants"; I
want people who have ideas and will carry them out with minimal
supervision. The sad problem is how to find useful, fulfilling work
for the less numerate, less skilled people in a world that is
increasingly automating (or exporting) their jobs out of existance.

This could be - theoretically - a serious problem, but as most
advanced western economies manage to keep the majority of the younger
working-age population in work, it doesn't seem to be too real at the
moment. The really nasty pockets of unemployment are caused by local
geography, with groups of potential workers stuck beyound commuting
distance of the sort of work that they could do. The U.S. further
complicates the system by running education on a largely local basis,
which allows some truly appalling secondary schools who produce
essentially unemployable graduates. I understand that the 2000 odd
tertiary institutions also include a few disasters, where the average
IQ is well below 100. And even good institutions can produce
unimpressive graduates - Dubbya went to Harvard, though I do believe
that he wouldn't have got in if his daddy and his grand-daddy hadn't
been alumni.

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Rich Grise]

"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message
...

Post by John Larkin
That's not what's happening. The smart, speedy, creative, and
ambitious get the best jobs and, as they mature, will wind up owning
everything. I certainly don't want to hire "obsequious sycophants"; I
want people who have ideas and will carry them out with minimal
supervision. The sad problem is how to find useful, fulfilling work
for the less numerate, less skilled people in a world that is
increasingly automating (or exporting) their jobs out of existance.

Hey, I've got an idea! First, of course, I'd have to get elected emperor
or something, but here's the plan - stand down all the world's militaries,
and take the resultant savings and feed everybody forever.

Cheers!
Rich

[John Larkin]

Post by Rich Grise
Hey, I've got an idea! First, of course, I'd have to get elected emperor
or something, but here's the plan - stand down all the world's militaries,
and take the resultant savings and feed everybody forever.

Not forever; just until somebody gets the bright idea to form up a new
army. And who's going to stop them?

John

[Klm]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:00:59 -0800, John Larkin

Post by John Larkin
That's not what's happening. The smart, speedy, creative, and
ambitious get the best jobs and, as they mature, will wind up owning
everything. I certainly don't want to hire "obsequious sycophants"; I
want people who have ideas and will carry them out with minimal
supervision. The sad problem is how to find useful, fulfilling work
for the less numerate, less skilled people in a world that is
increasingly automating (or exporting) their jobs out of existance.

If you incorporate the original poster's complaint

Post by John Larkin
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.

One possible solution will be to let seniors who are in decently good
health and capable, continue working. They need not be on top the pay
structure and can live quite well on less since they would have
accumulated most of what they need by that age. Their skills can be
profitably passed on to the younger generation. By remaining in
gainful and likely meaningful employment the older folks will stay
healthier and pay their own way and set aside social security for
those who really need it. In a recent FORTUNE Magazine article, over
the next 10 years, some 71 million Americans will reach retirement
age. The National Debt, calculated very conservatively, will be
something like $41 trillions, an unimagiable figure that has no chance
of being paid off. There is no money for social security and for
medicade.

The coping strategy for those who still have a job? Pay off all debts
and keep your savings in cash.

[John Larkin]

Post by Klm
The coping strategy for those who still have a job? Pay off all debts
and keep your savings in cash.

When government debt becomes excessive, the universal solution is to
print money and inflate the debt out of existance. This basicly steals
everybody's savings, in cash or equivalents, and lets the governmant
pack back its debts with junk paper. The only thing you can depend on
is property, and that's what older people usually own. The kids spend
their money on rent and clothes and stereos and cars and vacations,
all really worthless.

John

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:26:13 -0700, the renowned John Larkin

Post by John Larkin

Post by Klm
The coping strategy for those who still have a job? Pay off all debts
and keep your savings in cash.

When government debt becomes excessive, the universal solution is to
print money and inflate the debt out of existance. This basicly steals
everybody's savings, in cash or equivalents, and lets the governmant
pack back its debts with junk paper. The only thing you can depend on
is property, and that's what older people usually own. The kids spend
their money on rent and clothes and stereos and cars and vacations,
all really worthless.
John

The other alternative is for a popular revolution to grab the property
of the rich and re-distribute it. It tends to happen when a large
amount of the wealth ends up in a small number of hands. Of course
it's only temporary, and the cycle tends to start over again or
everyone stays poor. In that case, portable and offshore assets are
more secure. I know several families who have started over based on
such assets as jewels sewn into their clothing or secreted away in
body cavities.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[Richard Henry]

Post by Spehro Pefhany
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:26:13 -0700, the renowned John Larkin

Post by John Larkin

Post by Klm
The coping strategy for those who still have a job? Pay off all debts
and keep your savings in cash.

When government debt becomes excessive, the universal solution is to
print money and inflate the debt out of existance. This basicly steals
everybody's savings, in cash or equivalents, and lets the governmant
pack back its debts with junk paper. The only thing you can depend on
is property, and that's what older people usually own. The kids spend
their money on rent and clothes and stereos and cars and vacations,
all really worthless.
John

The other alternative is for a popular revolution to grab the property
of the rich and re-distribute it. It tends to happen when a large
amount of the wealth ends up in a small number of hands. Of course
it's only temporary, and the cycle tends to start over again or
everyone stays poor. In that case, portable and offshore assets are
more secure. I know several families who have started over based on
such assets as jewels sewn into their clothing or secreted away in
body cavities.

That assumes there is a market for the jewels. They are essentially useless
when a society is in survival mode - you can't eat them or burn them for
heat, and if you wear them, they will be stolen from your corpse.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:13:01 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"

Post by Richard Henry

Post by Spehro Pefhany
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:26:13 -0700, the renowned John Larkin

Post by John Larkin

Post by Klm
The coping strategy for those who still have a job? Pay off all debts
and keep your savings in cash.

When government debt becomes excessive, the universal solution is to
print money and inflate the debt out of existance. This basicly steals
everybody's savings, in cash or equivalents, and lets the governmant
pack back its debts with junk paper. The only thing you can depend on
is property, and that's what older people usually own. The kids spend
their money on rent and clothes and stereos and cars and vacations,
all really worthless.
John

The other alternative is for a popular revolution to grab the property
of the rich and re-distribute it. It tends to happen when a large
amount of the wealth ends up in a small number of hands. Of course
it's only temporary, and the cycle tends to start over again or
everyone stays poor. In that case, portable and offshore assets are
more secure. I know several families who have started over based on
such assets as jewels sewn into their clothing or secreted away in
body cavities.

That assumes there is a market for the jewels. They are essentially useless
when a society is in survival mode - you can't eat them or burn them for
heat, and if you wear them, they will be stolen from your corpse.

That assumes things are bad everywhere. What some people do when
things get really bad is flee to where things are a bit better, even
if that means learning a new language, giving up all their friends and
living in an alien culture. But the money where they came from is
probably seriously devalued as John said, and the jewels, inefficient
as they are at transferring wealth, are extremely portable.

P.S. You *can* burn diamonds for heat, but it's probably not the best
use for them.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Spehro Pefhany
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:26:13 -0700, the renowned John Larkin

Post by John Larkin
When government debt becomes excessive, the universal solution is to
print money and inflate the debt out of existance. This basicly steals
everybody's savings, in cash or equivalents, and lets the governmant
pack back its debts with junk paper. The only thing you can depend on
is property, and that's what older people usually own. The kids spend
their money on rent and clothes and stereos and cars and vacations,
all really worthless.
John

The other alternative is for a popular revolution to grab the property
of the rich and re-distribute it. It tends to happen when a large
amount of the wealth ends up in a small number of hands. Of course
it's only temporary, and the cycle tends to start over again or
everyone stays poor.

Somehow I think next time will be different. I'm thinking of electronic
smart-cards, e-cash implanted in our foreheads. Then Big Brother can be
sure nobody cheats him. Big Brother can make sure everyone stays equally
yoked by complete monitoring of all transactions. Bartering will be a
capitol offense - treason against the state that owns you.

Best we enjoy the good 'ol days now, while we are free to turn what
profit we are allowed.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

"Spehro Pefhany" <***@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
...

Post by Spehro Pefhany
more secure. I know several families who have started over based on
such assets as jewels sewn into their clothing or secreted away in
body cavities.

"We shoulda brought ZsaZsa - we coulda saved the car!"

[Rich Grise]

...

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Larkin
waste much more resources. We'll just keep the very few who are smart
and energetic, and teach them all we know.

You'll keep the few obsequious sycophants with well-padded knees, and
keep them deluded useful idiots. The competent and ambitious will be
degraded, dominated, or destroyed.

Oh Feh! Personally, I'd say that avoiding being degraded, dominated,
and/or destroyed would be a danged effective competency test!

(or you could do it the way I did it - become a Master Metaphysicist
and sit on your ass and let people bring you stuff! ;-> )

Cheers!
Rich

[Rich Grise]

"Scott Stephens" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:M8mbc.62841
...

Post by Scott Stephens
I'm the kind of middle-aged punk that is foaming-pissed over being
uncle-sam's peasant, who is constantly admonished of my obligation to
live for the collective. Who was told America was a meritocracy, not a
plutocracy. A "right" to medical benefits is an obligation of servitude
for those that must (resentfully) provide it, and it is a "right" for
the government to further invade the bodies of the public and assert the
obligation for the public to live for the state.
The US government is near 50% of the economy and 40% of the peasants
time is spent in their servitude. Perhaps I should just shut-up and be
grateful the government let me keep what money it has. I think the
government is a low-quality temporary employment agency whose main
customers are the multi-national corporations and the plutocracy that
owns them.
They have poisoned, even murdered their loyal employees in the past when
they decided it was too expensive to keep commitments to them.
Governments have killed 100's of millions of people in the last century,
every time "for their best interest".

OK, they're a bunch of lying, thieving, murderous scoundrels. So what
else is new? Or maybe more importantly, what do you expect me to do about
it? Yell and scream and rant and jump up and down and wave my arms around
and expect anything to change?

Most people, it seems, would rather be right than happy.

See if you can track down a book called "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree
World" by Harry Browne. Excellent read, and it works. He can teach you to
have freedom and fuck what everybody else is doing. It's a very peaceful
feeling. ('course, a couple hits o' primo bud don't do no harm! %-} )

Good Luck!
Rich

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Rich Grise
...

Post by Scott Stephens
I'm the kind of middle-aged punk that is foaming-pissed over being
uncle-sam's peasant,

OK, they're a bunch of lying, thieving, murderous scoundrels. So what
else is new? Or maybe more importantly, what do you expect me to do about
it? Yell and scream and rant and jump up and down and wave my arms around
and expect anything to change?

Thanks for listening =)

I feel better now.

Post by Rich Grise
Most people, it seems, would rather be right than happy.

Its about consistency. If you attempt to reconcile your beliefs and
experience, you can't compartmentalize the evil and injustice you
experience, saying, "dog-eat-dog world", "life is tough", "its normal".

You can't tolerate a double-standards that expects you to be plundered
and sacrificed, because you are one and society is many. Not if you
value yourself and your mind.

And yes, I expect change. Realization changes me, writing changes me. It
focuses my thoughts, and validates what others may be feeling but not
saying. And it gives others an opportunity to correct me, if they feel
it is of value.

Post by Rich Grise
See if you can track down a book called "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree
World" by Harry Browne. Excellent read, and it works. He can teach you to
have freedom and fuck what everybody else is doing. It's a very peaceful
feeling. ('course, a couple hits o' primo bud don't do no harm! %-} )

I like Harry Borwne, voted for him, FWIW. I'll get a copy. But other
than reciting the Serenity Prayer, and taking advantage of opportunity,
I am not hopeful I'll find any better ways of coping with reality.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise
...

Post by Scott Stephens
I'm the kind of middle-aged punk that is foaming-pissed over being
uncle-sam's peasant,

OK, they're a bunch of lying, thieving, murderous scoundrels. So what
else is new? Or maybe more importantly, what do you expect me to do about
it? Yell and scream and rant and jump up and down and wave my arms around
and expect anything to change?

Thanks for listening =)
I feel better now.

Post by Rich Grise
Most people, it seems, would rather be right than happy.

Its about consistency. If you attempt to reconcile your beliefs and
experience, you can't compartmentalize the evil and injustice you
experience, saying, "dog-eat-dog world", "life is tough", "its normal".

I think we could discuss this point at some length. Life can be tough,
and is for a lot of people, and I can sympathize with their plight;
I've been through a plight or two myself, but yeah, bottom line, it's
a bitch out there, and I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore
it.

Post by Scott Stephens
You can't tolerate a double-standards that expects you to be plundered
and sacrificed, because you are one and society is many. Not if you
value yourself and your mind.

I don't really think tolerating a double standard has much to do
with how I run my life. What I do is not make too much of an
investment of my time or energy into trying to change the world.
For one thing, any efforts to change the world are doomed, no
matter what. For another, doesn't everybody else have just as much
power over their life as I have over mine? I'd think that except
for extreme cases like victims of government purges and wars and
stuff, that everybody's in pretty much the same boat. Whining
and sniveling about how things are doesn't do any good, except
maybe mollify the guilt feelings of the person who's actually
appalled at the horror of reality, terrified of the consequences
of inaction, yet too chicken (or too lazy) to do anything about
it on their own behalf.

Yeah, there's injustice and all that crap, but what good does it
do anybody for me to take it personally? It isn't, you know.

All I have to do is figure out how to play the hand life dealt me.

And, of course, it's my responsibility, and mine alone, to see to it
that I don't get plundered and sacrificed if I don't feel like it.

Cheers!
Rich

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Scott Stephens
Its about consistency. If you attempt to reconcile your beliefs and
experience, you can't compartmentalize the evil and injustice you
experience, saying, "dog-eat-dog world", "life is tough", "its normal".

I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore it.

If an entity repeatedly commits evil acts, its best not to ignore it,
but realize the thing for what it is - an entity prone to commit evil acts.

Post by Scott Stephens
You can't tolerate double-standards that expects you to be plundered
and sacrificed, because you are one and society is many. Not if you
value yourself and your mind.

I don't really think tolerating a double standard has much to do
with how I run my life.

It will after time. That's how you will be conditioned, like any other
living thing, that you are inferior to the entity that is dominating you.

Oppression and resistance end and begin in the mind, with the
realization of injustice, not the repression of it.

What I do is not make too much of an
investment of my time or energy into trying to change the world.
For one thing, any efforts to change the world are doomed, no
matter what.

Not at all. Human nature is what it is. People want to flourish and be
free. If American's really understood TANSTAFL, and stopped believing
government lies, they would stop looking for government to save them. If
American's understood how to live for ourselves (as the Objectivist-like
philosophy Harry Browne is advocating in his Living Free book), we
wouldn't expect our neighbors to live for us and end up disappointed
and/or angry when they don't.

The Objectivist philosophy is relatively new to me. I didn't learn it in
my family, in my government school, or church. I was taught an
obligation to live for and serve others, and given an expectation others
would reciprocate. Instead, I got plundered and excuses.

For another, doesn't everybody else have just as much
power over their life as I have over mine?

No. You are hardly free while you feel some moral obligation to live for
your neighbors.

I'd think that except

for extreme cases like victims of government purges and wars and
stuff, that everybody's in pretty much the same boat.

Not everybody. A lot of peasants feel a sick obligation to live for
predators, which plunder all they can while gushing out altruistic BS.

Whining
and sniveling about how things are doesn't do any good

...

Yeah, there's injustice and all that crap, but what good does it
do anybody for me to take it personally? It isn't, you know.

The point is not to take it personally. Passively tolerating double
standards results in inferiority. Acknowledging that one is suffering
injustice by a superior force is a prescription for thoughts and actions
that will take one in a direction toward freedom.

And, of course, it's my responsibility, and mine alone, to see to it
that I don't get plundered and sacrificed if I don't feel like it.

To the extent we can choose to laugh it off, when President King George
or Slick Willie tells us we have an obligation sacrifice or volunteer
thousands of hours of our time, to a country run by a plutocratic
government plundering 40% of GDP of is one thing.

But the other atrocities I write about are things people are
involuntarily subjected to, by force.

A think is known, identified, by its characteristics. Government should
be known for the cancer on the American and world population it is, and
its politicians as a lying, devisive aristocracy.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by Scott Stephens

I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore it.

If an entity repeatedly commits evil acts, its best not to ignore it,
but realize the thing for what it is - an entity prone to commit evil acts.

Yeah, but there's not a whole lot I can do about _some_ evil acts,
like George II and his military adventurism all over the planet;
But I don't think I was put on this Earth to be a crusader, unless
living my own life in the manner of my choosing could be called a
crusade.

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Scott Stephens
You can't tolerate double-standards that expects you to be plundered
and sacrificed, because you are one and society is many. Not if you
value yourself and your mind.

I don't really think tolerating a double standard has much to do
with how I run my life.

It will after time. That's how you will be conditioned, like any other
living thing, that you are inferior to the entity that is dominating you.

This might be applicable to people who haven't found their inner
self-respect. Like I say, unless someone has you at gunpoint, there
is no sane reason to subjugate yourself to them.

Post by Scott Stephens
Oppression and resistance end and begin in the mind, with the
realization of injustice, not the repression of it.

Slavery does, in fact, depend on the consent of the slave.

Post by Scott Stephens

What I do is not make too much of an
investment of my time or energy into trying to change the world.
For one thing, any efforts to change the world are doomed, no
matter what.

Not at all. Human nature is what it is. People want to flourish and be
free. If American's really understood TANSTAFL, and stopped believing
government lies, they would stop looking for government to save them. If
American's understood how to live for ourselves (as the Objectivist-like
philosophy Harry Browne is advocating in his Living Free book), we
wouldn't expect our neighbors to live for us and end up disappointed
and/or angry when they don't.

Yeah, so there's at least two reasons to let them stew in their own
juices. If people want to be fools, it's a waste of my time to try
to convince them of anything. And I _certainly_ am not about to let
myself get dragged down into their little self-imposed prison.

Caveat Emptor, and all that.

Post by Scott Stephens
The Objectivist philosophy is relatively new to me. I didn't learn it in
my family, in my government school, or church. I was taught an
obligation to live for and serve others, and given an expectation others
would reciprocate. Instead, I got plundered and excuses.

Yup. You can't give from an empty vessel. And I had the same thing -
"Hey, if I'm supposed to live for everybody else's behalf, then
who's supposed to life for mine?"

Or the selfish trap. If someone tells you, "Don't be selfish - do it
my way instead" who is being the selfish one?

Post by Scott Stephens

For another, doesn't everybody else have just as much
power over their life as I have over mine?

No. You are hardly free while you feel some moral obligation to live for
your neighbors.

Ah. The "Moral Obligation" trap. This is still self-imposed. What,
I should diminish myself on your (or George's or whoever) behalf,
based on the belief that I'll get some intangible reward after I'm
dead? I don't think so.

Another problem with "Moral Obligation" is that it leads to the kind
of mass murder that George is perpetrating in the name of "Freedom."

Want Iraq Free? Then go the fuck home. "Here, Iraq! Here's you Freedom!
Bye!"

Post by Scott Stephens
I'd think that except

for extreme cases like victims of government purges and wars and
stuff, that everybody's in pretty much the same boat.

Not everybody. A lot of peasants feel a sick obligation to live for
predators, which plunder all they can while gushing out altruistic BS.

Still, self-imposed.

Post by Scott Stephens

Whining
and sniveling about how things are doesn't do any good

...

Yeah, there's injustice and all that crap, but what good does it
do anybody for me to take it personally? It isn't, you know.

The point is not to take it personally. Passively tolerating double
standards results in inferiority. Acknowledging that one is suffering
injustice by a superior force is a prescription for thoughts and actions
that will take one in a direction toward freedom.

And, of course, it's my responsibility, and mine alone, to see to it
that I don't get plundered and sacrificed if I don't feel like it.

To the extent we can choose to laugh it off, when President King George
or Slick Willie tells us we have an obligation sacrifice or volunteer
thousands of hours of our time, to a country run by a plutocratic
government plundering 40% of GDP of is one thing.
But the other atrocities I write about are things people are
involuntarily subjected to, by force.
A think is known, identified, by its characteristics. Government should
be known for the cancer on the American and world population it is, and
its politicians as a lying, devisive aristocracy.

Well, yeah, I know, and you know, and most people with a multiple-digit
IQ know, but (a) the sheeple don't know, and don't _want_ to know, and
(b) waiting for them to clue up will be a long wait indeed.

So screw them. Actually, absolute anarchy (in the true sense of the
word - "No Rulers") is best. Each person picks and chooses their
relationships, what they want, what they're willing to trade for
what they want, and everything. Any transaction between free people
always results in benefit to both parties, until some outside
psycho steps in and starts trying to regulate everything.

Oh, I hear the cries now: "Everybody'd run wild! Riots in the Streets!"
etc., etc. Well, can anyone anywhere actually name _ONE_ person that
would behave like that if suddenly there were no laws?

And don't forget, when Everyone's free, crime will practically
disappear because people will have the wherewithal to take care
of themselves. The wackos will kill each other off in a few days,
and the rest of us can get about our lives in peace.

Utopia.

Dream on!
Rich

[John S. Dyson]

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens

I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore it.

If an entity repeatedly commits evil acts, its best not to ignore it,
but realize the thing for what it is - an entity prone to commit evil

acts.
Yeah, but there's not a whole lot I can do about _some_ evil acts,
like George II and his military adventurism all over the planet;

Remember, GWB is not ignoring the evil anti-freedom forces in
Iraq, Afghanistan... War has been declared against the West for
a few decades -- but some don't notice it. Too bad that Europe is
ignoring the extremist anti-Jew evil in their midst. Chamberlin
lives in the mentality of many Europeans (and some US Democrats),
and that is a kind of evil in its own right.

The Islamists have been at war against the US for a couple of
decades, and it is sad that we only recognize it now.

John

[Scott Stephens]

Post by John S. Dyson
Remember, GWB is not ignoring the evil anti-freedom forces in
Iraq, Afghanistan... War has been declared against the West for
a few decades -- but some don't notice it. Too bad that Europe is
ignoring the extremist anti-Jew evil in their midst. Chamberlin
lives in the mentality of many Europeans (and some US Democrats),
and that is a kind of evil in its own right.

I didn't understand European's detesting the death penalty, until I saw
it in the light of the WW2 and all the atrocities there governments have
perpetrated. They don't trust themselves. They are jaded & corrupt, and
need to delude themselves with their liberal bunny-petting and
tree-hugging that their not a bunch of corrupt monsters that would go on
a murderous militant rampage with little provocation, and that the
United States had to save them from themselves. They'll never live it
down. So they'll shame us for defending ourselves and keeping a giant
military, as a direct consequence of European militarism and nationalism.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Scott Stephens

I didn't understand European's detesting the death penalty, until I saw it in
the light of the WW2 and all the atrocities there governments have perpetrated.
They don't trust themselves. They are jaded & corrupt, and need to delude
themselves with their liberal bunny-petting and tree-hugging that their not a
bunch of corrupt monsters that would go on a murderous militant rampage with
little provocation, and that the United States had to save them from themselves.
They'll never live it down. So they'll shame us for defending ourselves and
keeping a giant military, as a direct consequence of European militarism and
nationalism.

You are so extremely and widely deluded that there is little possibility
of enlightening you. Just start by accepting that practically everything
you wrote above is wrong. Then study world history, from the 15th
century, and you will perhaps understand a little more.

[Rich Grise]

Post by John S. Dyson

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens

I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore it.

If an entity repeatedly commits evil acts, its best not to ignore it,
but realize the thing for what it is - an entity prone to commit evil

acts.
Yeah, but there's not a whole lot I can do about _some_ evil acts,
like George II and his military adventurism all over the planet;

Remember, GWB is not ignoring the evil anti-freedom forces in
Iraq, Afghanistan... War has been declared against the West for
a few decades -- but some don't notice it. Too bad that Europe is
ignoring the extremist anti-Jew evil in their midst. Chamberlin
lives in the mentality of many Europeans (and some US Democrats),
and that is a kind of evil in its own right.
The Islamists have been at war against the US for a couple of
decades, and it is sad that we only recognize it now.

I guess I'll just get into trouble if I start arguing about this.
Another thing that makes me really, really sad is how many people
are just plain wrong, and would rather die, or preferably (to them)
murder, than face their own inner demons.

I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?" You don't think
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

Hell, back when they bombed that federal building, my first thought
was, Gee, maybe one of our colonies thought they's send a message -
"Hey, this is what it feels like when some irresistible evil invades
our home and destroys our structures and murders our women and children.
Have a taste of your own medicine!"

But that's un fucking american or some shit, probably.

Am I the only person on the planet who sees that the emperor has no
clothes?

Feh.
Rich

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Rich Grise
Another thing that makes me really, really sad is how many people
are just plain wrong, and would rather die, or preferably (to them)
murder, than face their own inner demons.

Than to face objective truth. You don't know what its like to be brought
up in a cult/fundamentalist environment.

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?"

Not I.

You don't think

Post by Rich Grise
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

I think, like I use to, that if anyone that didn't subscribe to my
fundamentalist/evangelical religion and was prospering, was prospering
because of evil, satanic influence.

Think about it. If you have an exclusive insight on the truth of God, as
delivered by your priest, preacher or imam, and you see pagans and
infidels flourishing, there is only one excuse. The devil is ripping you
off.

I'm sorry, but Al-Qada wont be satisfied until I'm bowing to Mecca and
worshiping Mohamed, or I have an RPG-7 up my butt.

However, that still doesn't mean King George needs to colonize and
defend Western exploitation of Middle East oil at the cost of American
blood. We could easily support indigenous rebels, just as we supported
the Contra anti-Sandonistas in Nicaragua.

But why can't we choose to fight for freedom of trade with a free Iraq?
You should read what Ayn Rand wrote about wars of liberation in her
"Virtue of Selfishness" book.

I suppose its OK for the French, Germans, Japs and Russians to bribe
Hussien to torture-kill dissidents and enslave his country for weapons
for a megalomania cal delusion of grandeur.

I suppose I'm saying our colonial tyranny is a kinder, gentler tyranny,
that can loath its corrupt identity more openly. My only gripe is that
American servicemen are not getting mercenary pay by our oil corp's.
They deserve it.

As the 'liberal' Christopher Hitchens says, 'If oil isn't worth fighting
for, what is?' An excellent question. Oil is food, oil is technology,
oil is prosperity, oil is health-care, oil is life, oil is blood.

Only Uranium, Plutonium, et. is more worthy of human blood.

Post by Rich Grise
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

War is war.

Post by Rich Grise
Am I the only person on the planet who sees that the emperor has no
clothes?

If we don't take their oil, the French or Russians will. And will they
cherish freedom any more than we? No! Its American blood that saved
their unworthy lame wussy asses from a Swastika.

A lot of soldiers in our military have war and adventure in their blood.
God bless 'em, hope they kick fundamentalist Islam's ass to hell. I pity
the ones that just joined for the $$$.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise
Another thing that makes me really, really sad is how many people
are just plain wrong, and would rather die, or preferably (to them)
murder, than face their own inner demons.

Than to face objective truth. You don't know what its like to be brought
up in a cult/fundamentalist environment.

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?"

Not I.
You don't think

Post by Rich Grise
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

I think, like I use to, that if anyone that didn't subscribe to my
fundamentalist/evangelical religion and was prospering, was prospering
because of evil, satanic influence.
Think about it. If you have an exclusive insight on the truth of God, as
delivered by your priest, preacher or imam, and you see pagans and
infidels flourishing, there is only one excuse. The devil is ripping you
off.
I'm sorry, but Al-Qada wont be satisfied until I'm bowing to Mecca and
worshiping Mohamed, or I have an RPG-7 up my butt.

-------------
That's true!

Post by Scott Stephens
However, that still doesn't mean King George needs to colonize and
defend Western exploitation of Middle East oil at the cost of American
blood. We could easily support indigenous rebels, just as we supported
the Contra anti-Sandonistas in Nicaragua.
But why can't we choose to fight for freedom of trade with a free Iraq?
You should read what Ayn Rand wrote about wars of liberation in her
"Virtue of Selfishness" book.

------------------
Rand is an ijit. Communists are much more powerful together than a
bunch of whining selfish losers trying to steal it from each other.
Those who can devote their whole loyalty to their Communist Tribe
will always defeat the loose wingnuts of greedy Capitalism.

Post by Scott Stephens
I suppose its OK for the French, Germans, Japs and Russians to bribe
Hussien to torture-kill dissidents and enslave his country for weapons
for a megalomania cal delusion of grandeur.
I suppose I'm saying our colonial tyranny is a kinder, gentler tyranny,
that can loath its corrupt identity more openly. My only gripe is that
American servicemen are not getting mercenary pay by our oil corp's.
They deserve it.

---------------
I AGREE! And I'm a secular Democratic Communist!

Post by Scott Stephens
As the 'liberal' Christopher Hitchens says, 'If oil isn't worth fighting
for, what is?' An excellent question. Oil is food, oil is technology,
oil is prosperity, oil is health-care, oil is life, oil is blood.
Only Uranium, Plutonium, et. is more worthy of human blood.

----------------------------
I agree! But it is Decent Communisms that have a right to the world,
and not thieving Capitalists who waste it all trying to become the
most wealthy, when it should be saved to do the People's Will before
the lack of it traps us on this rock.

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

War is war.

Post by Rich Grise
Am I the only person on the planet who sees that the emperor has no
clothes?

If we don't take their oil, the French or Russians will. And will they
cherish freedom any more than we? No! Its American blood that saved
their unworthy lame wussy asses from a Swastika.
A lot of soldiers in our military have war and adventure in their blood.
God bless 'em, hope they kick fundamentalist Islam's ass to hell.

-------------------
And when they're done they should come back here and kill the rest
of the Fundies over here!

Post by Scott Stephens
I pity
the ones that just joined for the $$$.
--
Scott

------------------
I agree.

-Steve

[Scott Stephens]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
But why can't we choose to fight for freedom of trade with a free Iraq?
You should read what Ayn Rand wrote about wars of liberation in her
"Virtue of Selfishness" book.

------------------
Rand is an ijit.

She is a genius.

Post by R. Steve Walz
Communists are much more powerful together than a
bunch of whining selfish losers trying to steal it from each other.

Yea, that's right. A mob is more powerful than a Republic of crooks. But
a free people that respect individual freedom to live ones own life for
oneself, and keep ones own private property, will be far more prosperous
in their division and specialization than a big mob managed by a deluded
little socialist mob.

Post by R. Steve Walz
Those who can devote their whole loyalty to their Communist Tribe
will always defeat the loose wingnuts of greedy Capitalism.

Be for real.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
As the 'liberal' Christopher Hitchens says, 'If oil isn't worth fighting
for, what is?' An excellent question. Oil is food, oil is technology,
oil is prosperity, oil is health-care, oil is life, oil is blood.
Only Uranium, Plutonium, et. is more worthy of human blood.

----------------------------
I agree! But it is Decent Communisms that have a right to the world,
and not thieving Capitalists who waste it all trying to become the
most wealthy, when it should be saved to do the People's Will before
the lack of it traps us on this rock.

Human beings must live as human beings, not bees or ants. Communism
doesn't work. Been there, done that, failed. It's cheap talk to blame
its demise on the capitalism which out-competed it.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
A lot of soldiers in our military have war and adventure in their blood.
God bless 'em, hope they kick fundamentalist Islam's ass to hell.

-------------------
And when they're done they should come back here and kill the rest
of the Fundies over here!

Most of our fundies don't go around forcing their will on others, or fly
jets into buildings. Occasionally putting Falwell or Robertson, the
Bakers, Roberts, et. on TV when they say something outrageously
ridiculous is enough to keep their numbers down.

I would like to hear a debate on the worst place to live - in
conservative Mormon Utah, or liberal Tax-achusets. Which is more
disgusting, Tammy Fae's makeup, or Janet Jackson's breast?

What a choice. Now I know why they hate us.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
I'm sorry, but Al-Qada wont be satisfied until I'm bowing to Mecca and
worshiping Mohamed, or I have an RPG-7 up my butt.

-------------
That's true!

So, just exactly how is this Qada guy supposed to accomplish this? Will
he be marching into your home town with 100,000 marines, stealth bombs,
etc, etc, etc? [0]

Maybe, but I kinda fuckin doubt it.

Rich

[0] for those of you who just fell off the turnip truck, that's how
the US enforces its brand of "freedom."

[John Woodgate]

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?" You don't think
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

No. While the US has made a lot of mistakes in foreign policy over the
years, it hasn't behaved like an inexorable, unreasoning, cold,
unfeeling murder machine. Since Viet Nam, anyway.

Post by Rich Grise
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

It's a response to illusions put into impressionable minds by evil men
who see that as the way to preserve their power. Often, but not always,
based on a perverted version of one religion or another.

Post by Rich Grise
Hell, back when they bombed that federal building, my first thought
was, Gee, maybe one of our colonies thought they's send a message -
"Hey, this is what it feels like when some irresistible evil invades
our home and destroys our structures and murders our women and children.
Have a taste of your own medicine!"

Which, if any, case of 'irresistible evil' perpetrated by US do you have
in mind?

Pure xenophobia and religious zeal encouraged by insane fanatics are
quite enough to convince some people that indiscriminate murder is fully
justified. It has been so throughout history and it's no different
today. Reports of such activities are even put forward for moral
improvement - in the Bible of all places! But that doesn't make those
activities tolerable.

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by John Woodgate

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?" You don't think
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

No. While the US has made a lot of mistakes in foreign policy over the
years, it hasn't behaved like an inexorable, unreasoning, cold,
unfeeling murder machine. Since Viet Nam, anyway.

--------------------------
Our problem in Fallujah is that we're too wussy to drop frag grenades
on every street demonstration till every demonstrator is dead. The
next day those "demonstrators" are soldiers with RPGs and their faces
covered, and if they aren't they'd better fucking shut the hell up so
they can be corraled, identified and pretected! We SHOULD be going
house to house confiscating every weapon and then leaving them in
a protective conquered space isolated by razor wire and checkpoints.

Post by John Woodgate

Post by Rich Grise
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

It's a response to illusions put into impressionable minds by evil men
who see that as the way to preserve their power. Often, but not always,
based on a perverted version of one religion or another.

-------------------------------
Sure it is, and if it isn't let them prove it by stopping or else
keep killing them.

Post by John Woodgate

Post by Rich Grise
Hell, back when they bombed that federal building, my first thought
was, Gee, maybe one of our colonies thought they's send a message -
"Hey, this is what it feels like when some irresistible evil invades
our home and destroys our structures and murders our women and children.
Have a taste of your own medicine!"

Which, if any, case of 'irresistible evil' perpetrated by US do you have
in mind?
Pure xenophobia and religious zeal encouraged by insane fanatics are
quite enough to convince some people that indiscriminate murder is fully
justified.

------------
It ain't murder if they're trying to kill you! Remember 9/11!!

Post by John Woodgate
It has been so throughout history and it's no different
today. Reports of such activities are even put forward for moral
improvement - in the Bible of all places! But that doesn't make those
activities tolerable.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.

---------------------

-Steve

[Scott Stephens]

Post by R. Steve Walz
Our problem in Fallujah is that we're too wussy to drop frag grenades
on every street demonstration till every demonstrator is dead.

Just like the Soviets did in Afghanistan. Your a true, good commie,
Steve. Rule by the whip and chain. Motivate with fear.

Capitalism rules by the carrot. Motivates with pride and greed. Market
with lust. That's why you can impose your socialism and communism with
guns, but you can't force freedom and capitalism on brainwashed
cult-zombies.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by R. Steve Walz
Our problem in Fallujah is that we're too wussy to drop frag grenades
on every street demonstration till every demonstrator is dead.

Just like the Soviets did in Afghanistan. Your a true, good commie,
Steve. Rule by the whip and chain. Motivate with fear.
Capitalism rules by the carrot. Motivates with pride and greed. Market
with lust. That's why you can impose your socialism and communism with
guns, but you can't force freedom and capitalism on brainwashed
cult-zombies.

Ironic, ain't it? The only thing it's impossible to coerce people
into doing is Be Free.

Maybe that's Life's Big Conundrum.

Cheers!
Rich

[Rich Grise]

Post by R. Steve Walz
Our problem in Fallujah is that we're too wussy to drop frag grenades
on every street demonstration till every demonstrator is dead. The
next day those "demonstrators" are soldiers with RPGs and their faces
covered, and if they aren't they'd better fucking shut the hell up so
they can be corraled, identified and pretected! We SHOULD be going
house to house confiscating every weapon and then leaving them in
a protective conquered space isolated by razor wire and checkpoints.

Heil Walz!

[Scott Stephens]

Post by John Woodgate

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?" You don't think
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?

No. While the US has made a lot of mistakes in foreign policy over the
years, it hasn't behaved like an inexorable, unreasoning, cold,
unfeeling murder machine. Since Viet Nam, anyway.

North & South Vietnam should be so lucky as South Korea, not North Korea.

Post by John Woodgate

Post by Rich Grise
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

It's a response to illusions put into impressionable minds by evil men
who see that as the way to preserve their power. Often, but not always,
based on a perverted version of one religion or another.

Don't forget the religion of the state that Lenin, Stalin, Moa and Pol
Pot preached. Or the religion of Socialist Nationalism Hilter preached.
The religion of the collectivist-state.

Post by John Woodgate
Pure xenophobia and religious zeal encouraged by insane fanatics are
quite enough to convince some people that indiscriminate murder is fully
justified.

Don't forget the "common good"!
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Woodgate
It's a response to illusions put into impressionable minds by evil men
who see that as the way to preserve their power. Often, but not always,
based on a perverted version of one religion or another.

Don't forget the religion of the state that Lenin, Stalin, Moa and Pol
Pot preached. Or the religion of Socialist Nationalism Hilter preached.
The religion of the collectivist-state.

Nowadays, in the US, the official state religion seems to be anti-smokerism.

Cheers!
Rich

[Rich Grise]

Post by John Woodgate
Which, if any, case of 'irresistible evil' perpetrated by US do you have
in mind?

Well, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Kent State spring to mind - and that's against
OUR OWN CITIZENS!

And not so much specifically evil, but keeping the US from trampling your
sovereignty, being under constant threat of invasion by a country that's
so heavily armed that it could turn the whole planet into a charred cinder
ten times over, I'd guess, kinda wears on a people.

I take it you've never been the victim of bullies. And it's especially
bad when the "authorities" take the side of the bully.

There isn't a fuckin thing you can do about it. Well, there's not much
that an unarmed 7-year-old kid can do about it. But I tell you what -
If I'd been armed, the world would be a better place with a couple
fewer bullies pushing around the weaker people.

Oh, yeah - about Iraqi freedom - just leave the guns, and Go Home.
It's very important to leave the guns. And lots and lots of ammo.

Then, pull back the trillion-dollar mass murder machine, and actually
_defend_ the US, and we'll be fat and happy and we can let the rest
of the world find freedom on their own. Or install dictators if they
want to - it's none of our damn business!

And no worries about ICBMs - for one thing, it's very unlikely that
a couple of warring religious factions will be able to get their act
together well enough to even make one, let alone launch one, and I
happen to be in on the design and construction of The Airborne Laser:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=northrop+%22airborne+laser%22
A truly _defensive_ weapon.

Cheers!
Rich

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Rich Grise
I guess everybody's afraid or too loyal or patriotic or some such
bullshit to ask, What exactly _causes_ "terrorism?" You don't think
these people could possibly be acting in defense against an inexorable,
unreasoning, cold, unfeeling murder machine that the US has been
inflicting on everybody on the planet since Washington DC decided
they're God, do you?
In other words, "terrorism" is a RESPONSE. It's a DEFENSIVE action,
when the enemy has no face, and murders from a distance, sending
machines to do their murdering, how can you fight it?

------------------------------
You over-estimate Islamist Fundies. If they had such a rationale,
such an analysis, they could avail themselves of its persuasive
power, and they wouldn't have to justify murder of westerners with
their sick twisted vicious fundy religion. They could appeal to
our reason, not our damned good reason to hate them and their
12th century superstitions.

Post by Rich Grise
Hell, back when they bombed that federal building, my first thought
was, Gee, maybe one of our colonies thought they's send a message -
"Hey, this is what it feels like when some irresistible evil invades
our home and destroys our structures and murders our women and children.
Have a taste of your own medicine!"

-----------------------------
Nope, their message was "This is what you get when your movies and
musical and secular influence makes our wives resist our brutality
and stupidity and makes our kids threaten our outdated sense of
propriety and sexual profanity."

Post by Rich Grise
But that's un fucking american or some shit, probably.
Am I the only person on the planet who sees that the emperor has no
clothes?
Feh.
Rich

-------------
Bullshit, Islam has no brains, and their trying to shoo away the
forces of secular freedom and enlightenment.

-Steve

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens

I have to learn to either deal with it or ignore it.

If an entity repeatedly commits evil acts, its best not to ignore it,
but realize the thing for what it is - an entity prone to commit evil

acts.
Yeah, but there's not a whole lot I can do about _some_ evil acts,
like George II and his military adventurism all over the planet;
But I don't think I was put on this Earth to be a crusader, unless
living my own life in the manner of my choosing could be called a
crusade.

Being free is a (personal) crusade. There is at least one frequent
poster here that believes there are no such things as rights the
collective does not grant to the individual. Obviously, everyone in
government that is deducting money from our paychecks feels that the
government has first dibs on our income, and is generous in allowing us
to keep what it gives us.

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Scott Stephens
You can't tolerate double-standards that expects you to be plundered
and sacrificed, because you are one and society is many. Not if you
value yourself and your mind.

I don't really think tolerating a double standard has much to do
with how I run my life.

It will after time. That's how you will be conditioned, like any other
living thing, that you are inferior to the entity that is dominating you.

This might be applicable to people who haven't found their inner
self-respect. Like I say, unless someone has you at gunpoint, there
is no sane reason to subjugate yourself to them.

If you have been grown up being admonished on your responsibility to
serve others, you have never known any 'inner self-respect'. Bukovsky
writes about dissidents that would escape the Soviet Union, only to
return later (and get shot/imprisoned) because they didn't know what to
do with their freedom. It wasn't what they'd expected.

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens
Oppression and resistance end and begin in the mind, with the
realization of injustice, not the repression of it.

Slavery does, in fact, depend on the consent of the slave.

Serve or be beaten to death. Your service, or your life. What a choice!

Post by Rich Grise
So screw them. Actually, absolute anarchy (in the true sense of the
word - "No Rulers") is best. Each person picks and chooses their
relationships, what they want, what they're willing to trade for
what they want, and everything. Any transaction between free people
always results in benefit to both parties, until some outside
psycho steps in and starts trying to regulate everything.
Oh, I hear the cries now: "Everybody'd run wild! Riots in the Streets!"
etc., etc. Well, can anyone anywhere actually name _ONE_ person that
would behave like that if suddenly there were no laws?
And don't forget, when Everyone's free, crime will practically
disappear because people will have the wherewithal to take care
of themselves. The wackos will kill each other off in a few days,
and the rest of us can get about our lives in peace.
Utopia.
Dream on!

The human mind is hard-wired for pain and pleasure, we learn empathy and
reason the hard way as children, from our parents beating it into us.
Without some form of law-enforcement, history would quickly repeat
itself, as the more stupid among us, and those with short attention
spans, began making excuses to deceive, dominate and plunder. Of course
if society was intelligent and coherent enough, law-enforcement would be
a distributed informal rather than a concentrated formal function.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens
Being free is a (personal) crusade. There is at least one frequent
poster here that believes there are no such things as rights the
collective does not grant to the individual.

-----------------
Your imaginary "freedom" is the "freedom" to get rich by robbing the
rest of us, THAT'S NOT FREEDOM! The reason freedoms must come from
the group is precisely because the natural State of Nature is to
kill anyone you don't like and take their stuff. Without the aegis
of the majority to sanction and protect one's possessions, they all
become just the booty of whomever is strong enough to steal them!

Post by Scott Stephens
Obviously, everyone in
government that is deducting money from our paychecks feels that the
government has first dibs on our income, and is generous in allowing us
to keep what it gives us.

------------------------
The government is not an entity, it is merely laws.

Post by Scott Stephens
If you have been grown up being admonished on your responsibility to
serve others, you have never known any 'inner self-respect'. Bukovsky
writes about dissidents that would escape the Soviet Union, only to
return later (and get shot/imprisoned) because they didn't know what to
do with their freedom. It wasn't what they'd expected.

--------------------------------
Freedom isn't free.

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise

Post by Scott Stephens
Oppression and resistance end and begin in the mind, with the
realization of injustice, not the repression of it.

Slavery does, in fact, depend on the consent of the slave.

Serve or be beaten to death. Your service, or your life. What a choice!

------------------------------------
Serving our group is what humans do when they're sane and their
group meets their needs. Pretending there is any "freedom" except
that is balderdash!

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise
So screw them. Actually, absolute anarchy (in the true sense of the
word - "No Rulers") is best. Each person picks and chooses their
relationships, what they want, what they're willing to trade for
what they want, and everything. Any transaction between free people
always results in benefit to both parties, until some outside
psycho steps in and starts trying to regulate everything.
Oh, I hear the cries now: "Everybody'd run wild! Riots in the Streets!"
etc., etc. Well, can anyone anywhere actually name _ONE_ person that
would behave like that if suddenly there were no laws?
And don't forget, when Everyone's free, crime will practically
disappear because people will have the wherewithal to take care
of themselves. The wackos will kill each other off in a few days,
and the rest of us can get about our lives in peace.
Utopia.
Dream on!

The human mind is hard-wired for pain and pleasure, we learn empathy and
reason the hard way as children, from our parents beating it into us.

-----------------
The difference between natural pain and that inflicted by humans is
that we KNOW the difference, and the latter causes us to swear dire
revenge!

Post by Scott Stephens
Without some form of law-enforcement, history would quickly repeat
itself, as the more stupid among us, and those with short attention
spans, began making excuses to deceive, dominate and plunder.

--------------------
You don't even realize that you mean the Capitalists!

Post by Scott Stephens
Of course
if society was intelligent and coherent enough, law-enforcement would be
a distributed informal rather than a concentrated formal function.
Scott

-----------------------
Yes, we'd spontaneously kkll them!

-Steve

[Scott Stephens]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Being free is a (personal) crusade. There is at least one frequent
poster here that believes there are no such things as rights the
collective does not grant to the individual.

-----------------
Your imaginary "freedom" is the "freedom" to get rich by robbing the
rest of us, THAT'S NOT FREEDOM!

Not robbing, trading. But if you can't compete, then you go running to a
politician to make life fair at gun-point.

Post by R. Steve Walz
The reason freedoms must come from
the group is precisely because the natural State of Nature is to
kill anyone you don't like and take their stuff. Without the aegis
of the majority to sanction and protect one's possessions, they all
become just the booty of whomever is strong enough to steal them!

Here is a fundamental difference in our philosophies. You say we are
inherently depraved. I say intelligent life respects the liberty and
property of other intelligent life, specializes its labor to trade with
its peers. It is either ignorance, moral weakness or stupidity to
plunder or steal.

Socialism and communism are collectivized theft.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Obviously, everyone in
government that is deducting money from our paychecks feels that the
government has first dibs on our income, and is generous in allowing us
to keep what it gives us.

------------------------
The government is not an entity, it is merely laws.

The government are individuals functioning with common purpose. The law
doesn't take my money and property, even freedom. People employed by the
government do.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
If you have been grown up being admonished on your responsibility to
serve others, you have never known any 'inner self-respect'. Bukovsky
writes about dissidents that would escape the Soviet Union, only to
return later (and get shot/imprisoned) because they didn't know what to
do with their freedom. It wasn't what they'd expected.

--------------------------------
Freedom isn't free.

Freedom is an opportunity to choose natural options available to you,
not to have your options defined by those who wield a superior coercive
force.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by Rich Grise
Slavery does, in fact, depend on the consent of the slave.

Serve or be beaten to death. Your service, or your life. What a choice!

------------------------------------
Serving our group is what humans do when they're sane and their
group meets their needs. Pretending there is any "freedom" except
that is balderdash!

A group that meets my needs recognizes my individual life, liberty and
private property. A group that holds their need as my obligation is a
rapacious mob of looters.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Without some form of law-enforcement, history would quickly repeat
itself, as the more stupid among us, and those with short attention
spans, began making excuses to deceive, dominate and plunder.

--------------------
You don't even realize that you mean the Capitalists!

Don't forget the socialists that rob and steal in the name of equality
and community!
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Rich Grise]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Being free is a (personal) crusade. There is at least one frequent
poster here that believes there are no such things as rights the
collective does not grant to the individual.

-----------------
Your imaginary "freedom" is the "freedom" to get rich by robbing the
rest of us, THAT'S NOT FREEDOM! The reason freedoms must come from
the group is precisely because the natural State of Nature is to
kill anyone you don't like and take their stuff. Without the aegis
of the majority to sanction and protect one's possessions, they all
become just the booty of whomever is strong enough to steal them!

Mr. Walz, if this is what you truly believe, then I am very sad for you.

Rich

[Ban]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the
longevity of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than
blacks, who pay far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes, by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability
insurance, as the fed Social Security program.
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to
a public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

Oh no Scotty,
I had a look at your site, the link collection is quite good, but when I saw
your picture, guy you look old with that little hair, and you do not seem to
be sportive either, probably a cigarette smoker?
So even if you feel young, get a girl-friend, kids and then think again
about what you have written here... The anti-autorian phase will be over
soon, hopefully.

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Ban
Oh no Scotty,
I had a look at your site, the link collection is quite good, but when I saw
your picture, guy you look old with that little hair, and you do not seem to
be sportive either, probably a cigarette smoker?

I keep getting fatter and balder, but I did manage to quit smoking 10
years ago.

Post by Ban
So even if you feel young, get a girl-friend, kids and then think again
about what you have written here... The anti-autorian phase will be over
soon, hopefully.

My anti-authoritarian phase began one day around 30 yrs ago at a school
bike rack, when for the third or fourth day in a row, bullies were
kicking and spitting on me. I slung my bike chain and nailed quite a few
of them. I almost got expelled, until, for once, my mother, who is of
the old-school that would scold me rather than the teachers when they
complained, finally realized the indifferent bureaucrats at the school
were blaming the bullies victims rather than the bullies, for the
bureaucrats inability to maintain order and discipline in their institution.

That day, the realization a bureaucrats main concern is their own
comfort and convenience, not their duty, and authority is often wrong
and corrupt. And everything in my 10 year career in the electronics
industry, and what I see and read in the media every day reinforces that
view.

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is FORCE. It is like
fire, a dangerous servant and a fearfully master." - Washington

I will add government is not good intentions, government is not virtuous
in robbing Peter to pay Paul while filching the lion's share of largess.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[The Real Andy]

"Scott Stephens" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:iK8bc.158500$***@attbi_s53...
<snipped some political bullshit that has nothing to do with electronics>

FUCK OFF.

...plonk

[Wayne]

Post by The Real Andy
<snipped some political bullshit that has nothing to do with electronics>
FUCK OFF.
...plonk

and what about your inputs re: beer and so on, after all it does have OT in
the subject line

you sound like an angry young man, maybe we could start with people like you
;-)

anyway, it's a good day today in Sydney, it's raining!

Wayne.

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
--
Scott

------------
Scott, April Fools was yesterday.

-Steve

[Peter John Lawton]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
.....

There's certainly a lot of lazy old buggers about who seem to think that
they should pack in work when they retire - incredible.
On the other hand, some of them did invent things like television, CD's
and aeroplanes and motor cars so making those who follow indebted to
them. Also they built most of the buildings. In fact, when you think
about it, the world was built by old people - when they were young.
Rather than euthenasing everyone old, the best thing to do would be to
pick out all the older men who have had productive and contributive
lives up to date and encourage young, selected, good-looking young women
to reproduce with them. Unfortunately, these young women will not have
had time to prove themselves, but on the whole the result should be to
improve the population.
Peter

Post by Scott Stephens
Scott
**********************************
DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!
http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/
**********************************

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 18:06:17 +0100, Peter John Lawton
<***@virgin.net> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter John Lawton
Rather than euthenasing everyone old, the best thing to do would be to
pick out all the older men who have had productive and contributive
lives up to date and encourage young, selected, good-looking young women
to reproduce with them. Unfortunately, these young women will not have
had time to prove themselves, but on the whole the result should be to
improve the population.
Peter

Scott

Sounds GOOD to me !-)

...Jim Thompson

[Winfield Hill]

Jim Thompson wrote...

Post by Jim Thompson
Sounds GOOD to me !-)

We'll let your wife know. :>)

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Peter John Lawton

Post by Peter John Lawton
Rather than euthenasing everyone old, the best thing to do would be to
pick out all the older men who have had productive and contributive
lives up to date and encourage young, selected, good-looking young women
to reproduce with them. Unfortunately, these young women will not have
had time to prove themselves, but on the whole the result should be to
improve the population.

But as Bernard Shaw said, the offspring might have his beauty and her
brains.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 18:06:17 +0100, the renowned Peter John Lawton

Post by Peter John Lawton
There's certainly a lot of lazy old buggers about who seem to think that
they should pack in work when they retire - incredible.
On the other hand, some of them did invent things like television, CD's
and aeroplanes and motor cars so making those who follow indebted to
them. Also they built most of the buildings. In fact, when you think
about it, the world was built by old people - when they were young.
Rather than euthenasing everyone old, the best thing to do would be to
pick out all the older men who have had productive and contributive
lives up to date and encourage young, selected, good-looking young women
to reproduce with them. Unfortunately, these young women will not have
had time to prove themselves, but on the whole the result should be to
improve the population.
Peter

Doesn't it work that way now?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[Bill Sloman]

Post by Spehro Pefhany
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 18:06:17 +0100, the renowned Peter John Lawton

Post by Peter John Lawton
There's certainly a lot of lazy old buggers about who seem to think that
they should pack in work when they retire - incredible.
On the other hand, some of them did invent things like television, CD's
and aeroplanes and motor cars so making those who follow indebted to
them. Also they built most of the buildings. In fact, when you think
about it, the world was built by old people - when they were young.
Rather than euthenasing everyone old, the best thing to do would be to
pick out all the older men who have had productive and contributive
lives up to date and encourage young, selected, good-looking young women
to reproduce with them. Unfortunately, these young women will not have
had time to prove themselves, but on the whole the result should be to
improve the population.
Peter

Doesn't it work that way now?

Taking Rupert Murdoch as an example? I hate what he does to the
newspapers he takes over, but on a strictly commercial basis he has
been very productive, and he has just had two children with his third
wife, Wendy Deng.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/s777043.htm

------------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[N. Thornton]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources.

I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.

The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.


Regards, NT

[John Larkin]

Post by N. Thornton

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources.

I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.
Regards, NT

Is retirement mandatory in the UK?

John

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <***@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <h0td705fnb1i9netilvsr7r1ahmajfnbu0@
4ax.com>) about '[OT] The old must die for the young', on Fri, 9 Apr

Post by John Larkin
Is retirement mandatory in the UK?

It depends what you mean. Some occupations (e.g. fire-fighter) have
retirement limits for obvious reasons. Some companies have retirement
policies still, but AIUI, European legislation will eventually prevent
this, as a *policy*.

Self-employed people, and some company employees, can go on working
indefinitely, I'm pleased to say. (;-)

[N. Thornton]

Post by John Larkin
Is retirement mandatory in the UK?

Most jobs still come with automatic dismissal at a certain age, and
people routinely cant get further employment due to widespread
discrimination. Its a very poor situation really.

Regards, NT

[John Woodgate]

Post by N. Thornton

Post by John Larkin
Is retirement mandatory in the UK?

Most jobs still come with automatic dismissal at a certain age, and
people routinely cant get further employment due to widespread
discrimination. Its a very poor situation really.

The above mostly applies to large employers; for SMEs, which together
employ the vast majority of people, things are a lot more flexible.

[Winfield Hill]

John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill

Post by Winfield Hill
John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Sorry, Eurospeak for 'small and medium-sized enterprises'.

Also, a company that made very high quality pickup arms for playing
vinyl discs.

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:59:52 +0100, John Woodgate

Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill

Post by Winfield Hill
John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Sorry, Eurospeak for 'small and medium-sized enterprises'.

Sort of like SOHO here.

John

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <***@highlandSNIP
techTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote (in <qc2j70l5uflqu2kc2sggm8nnn0odmkakfu@
4ax.com>) about '[OT] The old must die for the young', on Sun, 11 Apr

Post by John Larkin
Sort of like SOHO here.

'Medium-sized' enterprises are quite sizeable - up to 250 employees,
AIUI.

[Bill Sloman]

Post by Winfield Hill
John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Small and Medium-sized Employers. John should have known better than
to post the acronym without expansion ....

-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Fred Bloggs]

Post by Bill Sloman

Post by Winfield Hill
John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Small and Medium-sized Employers. John should have known better than
to post the acronym without expansion ....
-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

No- SME= Subject Matter Expert and they create employment for vast
majority of people.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:48:52 GMT, the renowned Fred Bloggs

Post by Fred Bloggs

Post by Bill Sloman

Post by Winfield Hill
John Woodgate wrote...

... for SMEs, which together employ the vast majority
of people, things are a lot more flexible.

SME?

Small and Medium-sized Employers. John should have known better than
to post the acronym without expansion ....
-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

No- SME= Subject Matter Expert and they create employment for vast
majority of people.

Society of Manufacturing Engineers is wot it means to me. Expensive,
but good, technical books.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[John Woodgate]

Post by Bill Sloman
Small and Medium-sized Employers. John should have known better than
to post the acronym without expansion ....

I thought it was well-enough known, and I've already posted an
explanation. Two, in fact.

[Scott Stephens]

Post by N. Thornton

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources.

I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.

Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth. Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Roger Gt]

X-No-Archive: yes
"Scott Stephens" wrote
: N. Thornton wrote
: > Scott Stephens wrote
: >>The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an
unproductive,
: >>senile elderly population at the expense of the productive
young
: >>indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's
best
: >>interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
: >>
: >>It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
: >>implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and
Earth's
: >>resources.
: >
: > I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had
more
: > understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard
to see
: > how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
: >
: > The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing
pension
: > age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid
aspects
: > of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.
:
: Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology
changes so
: fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth.
Punks
: with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel
cheap and
: without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't
know
: what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a
bowl of
: rice, are much more profitable. Scott

If they are dumb enough to work cheap, they are TOO dumb to do the
work right. I get a lot of my jobs fixing the mess they leave!

[N. Thornton]

Post by Scott Stephens
Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth.

Illogical.

Post by Scott Stephens
Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

Grads may be cheaper but they also dont have the same kind of skills.


Regards, NT

[Jim Thompson]

[snip]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by N. Thornton
I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.

Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth. Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

I certainly qualify as a "fossil". I GUARANTEE I know more than you
will ever learn EVEN as the technology changes. My estimation of you
is a worthless POS that couldn't even design a voltage regulator, and
has to work "18 hours a day for a bowl of rice" trying to impress your
boss... but the boss is already aware that you are incompetent.

(And POS *doesn't stand for "point of sale" :)

...Jim Thompson

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:33:39 -0700, Jim Thompson

Post by Jim Thompson
[snip]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by N. Thornton
I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.

Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth. Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

I certainly qualify as a "fossil". I GUARANTEE I know more than you
will ever learn EVEN as the technology changes. My estimation of you
is a worthless POS that couldn't even design a voltage regulator, and
has to work "18 hours a day for a bowl of rice" trying to impress your
boss... but the boss is already aware that you are incompetent.
(And POS *doesn't stand for "point of sale" :)
...Jim Thompson

Er, right.

John

[Fred Bloggs]

Post by Jim Thompson

Post by Scott Stephens
Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth. Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

I certainly qualify as a "fossil". I GUARANTEE I know more than you
will ever learn EVEN as the technology changes. My estimation of you
is a worthless POS that couldn't even design a voltage regulator, and
has to work "18 hours a day for a bowl of rice" trying to impress your
boss... but the boss is already aware that you are incompetent.
(And POS *doesn't stand for "point of sale" :)
...Jim Thompson

Natural selection favors incompetence; a 1978 Harvard study of baboon
colonies in Timbuktu showed....

[John Woodgate]

Natural selection favors incompetence; a 1978 Harvard study of baboon colonies
in Timbuktu showed....

But would a study of colonies in Harvard by baboons have given the same
result?

[Scott Stephens]

Post by Jim Thompson
[snip]

Post by Scott Stephens
Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth. Punks
with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

I certainly qualify as a "fossil". I GUARANTEE I know more than you
will ever learn EVEN as the technology changes.

Perhaps, perhaps not, unless you are going to kill me before I can ;)

Post by Jim Thompson
My estimation of you
is a worthless POS that couldn't even design a voltage regulator, and
has to work "18 hours a day for a bowl of rice" trying to impress your
boss... but the boss is already aware that you are incompetent.

On what do you base your estimation, my pissing and moaning? Don't
explain, I don't care.

Anyways, too bad if you (and any other slow fossils out there)
misunderstood me and have taken offense at this thread, which I intended
to be a provocative troll on the topic of the consequences of socialism
and government infiltration into the health care industry.

I wasn't saying age-discrimination is a good idea, I was bemoaning what
I read as *a fact*. An article in some trade journal I read was in mind
(circa 1990) that listed lots of occupations laid-off engineers could
get into. Being around 40, I do not advocate age discrimination - I am
bemoaning it (duh).

Just for laughs, I do a web search on "age discrimination engineering"
and find:

http://home.techies.com/Common/Content/2001/01/3career_agebiasworkexperiences.html:

"Age bias is here to stay, despite laws and other means put in place.
I've sent two identical resumes to companies, one with my age, and the
other written so as to make my age invisible. Guess which one got the
response. Guess what happened when I arrived for the interview. The
young lady, in her 20s, asked only two unrelated questions, then
informed me the positions were all filled."
– Engineer, age 45-54, 10 or more years of experience"

"Earned a B.S. degree, Computer Science, at age 42. (Laid off from
position of 10 years.) Sent out over 100 resumes. Got my present job
only by adjusting resume to appear 10 years younger. Made changes in
appearance (goatee, dyed beard, etc.) to look younger at interview.
After hire, management was shocked when they found out my true age from HR."
– Help Desk/Support Specialist, age 35-44, 1-2 years experience"

"At age 47, while unemployed, I met with a veterans counselor at the
Oregon State Employment Service. The counselor's first comment to me was
'I don't want to tell you there is age discrimination in the workplace,
but go home and dye your hair.' "
– Systems Administrator, age 55-64, 10 or more years of experience


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1005800/posts
Letters to Machine Design:

"I worked for NASA in the 1990s during the Clinton years when the agency
became mainly a jobs program for women and minorities. There was more
emphasis on making NASA look like America than in accomplishing
anything. Service contracts were taken away from competent firms and
placed with set-aside firms owned by minorities. Whenever we bought
anything, we had to spend time looking for a minority-owned business to
place an order, even if it were at double the price. I quit when my
supervisor told me I would never be promoted to management because I was
a white guy."

"-I have a degree in electronic engineering and am a contractor serving
as lead engineer supervising a team of contractor and NASA engineers.
All my subordinates are under 26 years old and don't know enough to be
dangerous. The NASA engineers are a lazy lot, yet it is difficult for
NASA employees to get laid off or fired. By the way, an example of kids
doing work over their heads was the analysis of foam damage before the
loss of the Shuttle."



It exists Virginia, and blaming this 30-sumthin punk that is having
difficulty coping with the loss of his freedom and culture aint gonna
make it go away.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Fred Bloggs]

Post by Scott Stephens
"I worked for NASA in the 1990s during the Clinton years when the agency
became mainly a jobs program for women and minorities. There was more
emphasis on making NASA look like America than in accomplishing
anything. Service contracts were taken away from competent firms and
placed with set-aside firms owned by minorities. Whenever we bought
anything, we had to spend time looking for a minority-owned business to
place an order, even if it were at double the price. I quit when my
supervisor told me I would never be promoted to management because I was
a white guy."

That letter is bogus bs from a fraud! NASA was always a bloated sewer
infested with parasites and incompetent riffraff- WHITE MIDDLE CLASS
TRASH PARASITES AND INCOMPETENT RIFFRAFF! They don't like the social
policies?- they can go to hell! "Women and minorities" would be hard
pressed to do as BAD as a job as that bunch of turds- good f...g
riddance to them!

[John Larkin]

Post by Scott Stephens
On what do you base your estimation, my pissing and moaning? Don't
explain, I don't care.
Anyways, too bad if you (and any other slow fossils out there)
misunderstood me and have taken offense at this thread, which I intended
to be a provocative troll on the topic of the consequences of socialism
and government infiltration into the health care industry.

What this thread is really about is the Wealth Paradox. In some
vermin-ridden village in Indonesia, with no services, no utilities, no
medical care, and fundamantally dangerous and miserable lives, they
occasionally catch a big fish: this makes them very happy, so they
bake it, have a big party, sing all night and feel good for a while.
Meanwhile, here in the USA, we have warm secure houses, multiple
credit cards, health and dental care, and nobody's shooting AK-47s at
the huge ugly SUVs clogging our driveways, so we react by being rude
and discontented most of the time, lamenting the burdens of our lives,
and flying into a rage at the slightest vexation.

Listen: the West is so frickin rich that nobody has to die for anybody
else's sake. We should back off our absurd consumption of joyless crap
and help the rest of the world be better off.

(How's that for a troll?)

John

[Scott Stephens]

Post by John Larkin
What this thread is really about is the Wealth Paradox. In some
vermin-ridden village in Indonesia...
they occasionally catch a big fish: this makes them very happy, so they
bake it, have a big party, sing all night and feel good for a while.

God bless 'em. I hope they catch lots of fish, get educations and
technology. Even if they compete against me for oil. That's more than
environmentalists want for them. They want diseases to kill them.

Post by John Larkin
we react by being rude
and discontented most of the time, lamenting the burdens of our lives,
and flying into a rage at the slightest vexation.
Listen: the West is so frickin rich that nobody has to die for anybody
else's sake. We should back off our absurd consumption of joyless crap
and help the rest of the world be better off.

I've heard that argument before. Motorola sent me to Dale Carnegie Mind
Control to be taught the Code Of Peasants - "At least I'm not as bad off
as that poor SOB". "It could be worse". Be thankful. As long as I've got
somebody to look down on, I'm OK.

All a liberal has to do is beat up a whipping boy in front of you, and
you feel good as they plunder your income. Sucker!

I am thankful (to Nature's God), but I will never measure myself against
my neighbors misery. I frame circumstances in proper context. I'm not
living in Indonesia. Lets measure you and your wealth against that
standard, and I will measure my personal circumstances against the good
I would experience if fat, rapacious socialist pigs were not plundering
the economy.

I will never let some fat, stupid, socialist pigs lie to me about their
altruistic motives, plunder my wealth, squander it on foolishness while
filching as much as they can, and then console me by telling me I'm not
as bad off as somebody who has been screwed by bigger pigs.

Our (American) ancestors evicted the British for far less cause than we
have today. Our wealth has become an anesthetic. It has dulled our
senses to the predatory vermin that are looting us, and the cancers that
are eating us alive.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Larkin
What this thread is really about is the Wealth Paradox. In some
vermin-ridden village in Indonesia...
they occasionally catch a big fish: this makes them very happy, so they
bake it, have a big party, sing all night and feel good for a while.

God bless 'em. I hope they catch lots of fish, get educations and
technology. Even if they compete against me for oil. That's more than
environmentalists want for them. They want diseases to kill them.

-------------------
Nonsense.

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by John Larkin
we react by being rude
and discontented most of the time, lamenting the burdens of our lives,
and flying into a rage at the slightest vexation.
Listen: the West is so frickin rich that nobody has to die for anybody
else's sake. We should back off our absurd consumption of joyless crap
and help the rest of the world be better off.

I've heard that argument before. Motorola sent me to Dale Carnegie Mind
Control to be taught the Code Of Peasants - "At least I'm not as bad off
as that poor SOB". "It could be worse". Be thankful. As long as I've got
somebody to look down on, I'm OK.

----------------------------------
More Rabid Rightist Radio nonsense. You must listen to these rightist
clowns all day as your excuse for an education.

Post by Scott Stephens
All a liberal has to do is beat up a whipping boy in front of you, and
you feel good as they plunder your income. Sucker!

-----------------------------------
You haven't the least understanding of what a "liberal" is, nor
what the world is about. The people who brainwashed you so well
paid damned good money for you to be so thoroughly deluded and
misinformed so they could get richer and richer at as many people's
expense as possible!

Post by Scott Stephens
I am thankful (to Nature's God), but I will never measure myself against
my neighbors misery. I frame circumstances in proper context. I'm not
living in Indonesia. Lets measure you and your wealth against that
standard, and I will measure my personal circumstances against the good
I would experience if fat, rapacious socialist pigs were not plundering
the economy.

----------------------------
Nonsense, there aren't any "socialist pigs", you're reciting Animal
Farm, which was a propaganda novel written in the pay of the rich
to disinform the populace. Socialists re-divide wealth to the people
who PRODUCED it, and pretending that taking wealth away from a pig
must require another pig is the height of loserism.

Post by Scott Stephens
I will never let some fat, stupid, socialist pigs lie to me about their
altruistic motives, plunder my wealth, squander it on foolishness while
filching as much as they can,

-------------------------
Nonsense, all socialists do is return your stolen booty to the people
you stole it from!

Post by Scott Stephens
and then console me by telling me I'm not
as bad off as somebody who has been screwed by bigger pigs.

-------------------------
You have the pompous western belief that you are SO talented that
you should be allowed to do a couple years work and live off it
with everyone else enslaved to you so THEY have to work 40 YEARS
to your two and bow down and serve you!

Post by Scott Stephens
Our (American) ancestors evicted the British for far less cause than we
have today.

------------------------
The poor were convinced the British had enslaved them, when only the
rich planters and wealthy shippers and indusrialists were being taxed
by the British, it was the wealthy controlling the people with disinfo
again. Was it a good idea to split from a monarchy? Sure, but the
motive of the wealthy in this country was TO BE THE NEW MONARCHY AND
TO GET FILTHY RICH!

Post by Scott Stephens
Our wealth has become an anesthetic. It has dulled our
senses to the predatory vermin that are looting us, and the cancers that
are eating us alive.
Scott

-------------------------
And your sort of ludicrous crap is the biggest one!!!

-Steve

[John Woodgate]

Post by R. Steve Walz
Nonsense, there aren't any "socialist pigs", you're reciting Animal
Farm, which was a propaganda novel written in the pay of the rich
to disinform the populace.

You misrepresent George Orwell/ Eric Blair, who actually had some views
similar to your own. Animal Farm is a denunciation of the elitist
capitalism that the alleged Communist government of USSR had adopted.

[Scott Stephens]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Code Of Peasants - "At least I'm not as bad off
as that poor SOB". "It could be worse". Be thankful. As long as I've got
somebody to look down on, I'm OK.

----------------------------------
More Rabid Rightist Radio nonsense. You must listen to these rightist
clowns all day as your excuse for an education.

Nope. Common experience. I hardly ever listen to radio.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
All a liberal has to do is beat up a whipping boy in front of you, and
you feel good as they plunder your income. Sucker!

-----------------------------------
You haven't the least understanding of what a "liberal" is, nor
what the world is about.

I know what a "liberal" use to be, until the term was co opted,
redefined, by leftist liars.

Post by R. Steve Walz
The people who brainwashed you so well
paid damned good money for you to be so thoroughly deluded and
misinformed so they could get richer and richer at as many people's
expense as possible!

Not like the communist left that wants to get rich off the labors of
others, that expects people to live for each other, rather than living
for themselves.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
I am thankful (to Nature's God), but I will never measure myself against
my neighbors misery. I frame circumstances in proper context. I'm not
living in Indonesia. Lets measure you and your wealth against that
standard, and I will measure my personal circumstances against the good
I would experience if fat, rapacious socialist pigs were not plundering
the economy.

----------------------------
Nonsense, there aren't any "socialist pigs", you're reciting Animal
Farm, which was a propaganda novel written in the pay of the rich
to disinform the populace.

Orwell was a socialist himself =)

Like Bukovsky, he came to the conclusion that labels such as 'left',
'right', 'liberal', and 'conservative' don't really matter when
concentration camps exist to torture political prisoners.

When force is initiated, freedom is the first victim.

Post by R. Steve Walz
Socialists re-divide wealth to the people
who PRODUCED it, and pretending that taking wealth away from a pig
must require another pig is the height of loserism.

That is what socialist governments exist to do, rob Peter to compensate
Paul by initiating force. Paul's need is a claim and obligation on
Peter's life, liberty and property.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
I will never let some fat, stupid, socialist pigs lie to me about their
altruistic motives, plunder my wealth, squander it on foolishness while
filching as much as they can,

-------------------------
Nonsense, all socialists do is return your stolen booty to the people
you stole it from!

What have I stolen? Other than to refuse the obligation to serve the
collective with my life, liberty and property. I recognize no obligation.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
and then console me by telling me I'm not
as bad off as somebody who has been screwed by bigger pigs.

-------------------------
You have the pompous western belief that you are SO talented that
you should be allowed to do a couple years work and live off it
with everyone else enslaved to you so THEY have to work 40 YEARS
to your two and bow down and serve you!

What? Who says? The only people I know of making such rules are
politicians that enforce them with armed police.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Our (American) ancestors evicted the British for far less cause than we
have today.

------------------------
The poor were convinced the British had enslaved them, when only the
rich planters and wealthy shippers and indusrialists were being taxed
by the British, it was the wealthy controlling the people with disinfo
again. Was it a good idea to split from a monarchy? Sure, but the
motive of the wealthy in this country was TO BE THE NEW MONARCHY AND
TO GET FILTHY RICH!

That's why the Constitution defines separation of powers and term
limits. IIRC some wanted to make Washington our "King" but he wouldn't
have any of that foolishness. Titles of Nobility were outlawed.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Bill Sloman]

<snip>

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
I am thankful (to Nature's God), but I will never measure myself against
my neighbors misery. I frame circumstances in proper context. I'm not
living in Indonesia. Lets measure you and your wealth against that
standard, and I will measure my personal circumstances against the good
I would experience if fat, rapacious socialist pigs were not plundering
the economy.

----------------------------
Nonsense, there aren't any "socialist pigs", you're reciting Animal
Farm, which was a propaganda novel written in the pay of the rich
to disinform the populace.

Orwell was a socialist himself =)
Like Bukovsky, he came to the conclusion that labels such as 'left',
'right', 'liberal', and 'conservative' don't really matter when
concentration camps exist to torture political prisoners.
When force is initiated, freedom is the first victim.

Post by R. Steve Walz
Socialists re-divide wealth to the people
who PRODUCED it, and pretending that taking wealth away from a pig
must require another pig is the height of loserism.

That is what socialist governments exist to do, rob Peter to compensate
Paul by initiating force. Paul's need is a claim and obligation on
Peter's life, liberty and property.

That does seem to be the image of socialism spread by the
capitalist-owned American media, largely based on the idea that
Russian communism was a representative socialist government. In fact
Russian communism was one more example of a rapacious oligarchy -
organised minority that creamed off everything they could rip off from
the efforts of the bulk of the population, not unlike Franco's regime
in Spain.

It's behaviour had as much to do with real socialism as Franco's (in
Spain) had to do with the Christian values that Franco claimed to
represent and champion.

Modern socialism has long since learned the lesson that while market
economies do have to be regulated to restrain their tendency to
degenerate into exploitive monopolies and cartels (a feature
recognised in the U.S. anti-trust legislation), the market economy is
usually a lot more efficient than than its centrally planned
equivalent.

Modern socialist governments now seem to re-learning the lessons of
Victorian England, that natural monopolies (like power distribution
and railway networks) do work better as centrally planned and
regulated organisations.

Modern socialist governments do go in for better welfare systems than
you've got in the U.S. but this can be justified on the basis that
this - in the long term - maximises the productivity of the economy as
a whole. Since you can always find an economist to defend any economic
system you can name, such justifications are frequently criticised,
but in my experience the economists who see the advantage of western
European welfare levels have a better record on predicting the
behaviour of the real economy than those favoured by the current U.S.
administration.

The tax levels in western Europe and the U.S. aren't wildly different
- a lot more of the U.S. tax take goes to the U.S. military-industrial
complex, who are now soaking up as much money as is being expended on
"defence" by the next ten countries down the ranking order in total.
In times past, the top dog was content to spend as much as the two
next competitors down the ranking order.

So I'm being soaked to keep the unemployed and their kids in frugal
comfort, while the U.S. taxpayer is being soaked for the benefit of
the armament industry and its shareholders, who might be seen as just
another rapacious oligarchy .....

--------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens
Anyways, too bad if you (and any other slow fossils out there)
misunderstood me and have taken offense at this thread, which I intended
to be a provocative troll on the topic of the consequences of socialism
and government infiltration into the health care industry.

--------------------------------
The more People's govt controls and even confiscates the health
industry from the rich, the better our health system will become,
viz a viz Canada and Europe. Every other nation has national health,
and the last hold-out is the USA, this is caused by the wealthy
fleeing to the USA as the last place that strives to make the
world safe for the wealthy!! We must do away with that.

Post by Scott Stephens
"Age bias is here to stay, despite laws and other means put in place.

[]

Post by Scott Stephens
Scott

----------------
Then we need strct and confiscatory Draconian laws against it, laws
that only the People can bring to bear, because they fear the
alterative, whereas big business has nothing to lose.

-Steve

[Rich Grise]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Anyways, too bad if you (and any other slow fossils out there)
misunderstood me and have taken offense at this thread, which I intended
to be a provocative troll on the topic of the consequences of socialism
and government infiltration into the health care industry.

--------------------------------
The more People's govt controls and even confiscates the health
industry from the rich, the better our health system will become,
viz a viz Canada and Europe. Every other nation has national health,
and the last hold-out is the USA, this is caused by the wealthy
fleeing to the USA as the last place that strives to make the
world safe for the wealthy!! We must do away with that.

Flippin' Idiot.

The Canuks are "fleeing to the USA" to get medical care AT ALL.
The socialist system up there is broke, as has been shown repeatedly
to be inevitable.

Socialism always goes broke when the folks whose backs it's being
supported on figure out that they can get just as many goodies
as the freeloaders whether they work or not - the means of production
comes to a grinding halt, and there are riots in the streets.

Ever hear The True Story of the First Thanksgiving?

Some colony had been on a socialist system for a couple of years,
and the single men and those with small families were sick and tired
of their "equal" contribution to the common pool getting pulled out
5 to 10 or more times over by the breeders with the big litters.
They got disgruntled and said, "Screw them, I'll take out in the
same proportion as him."

It only took a couple of years for everybody to reach the threshold
of starvation.

So some brilliant governor realized "This isn't working. OK, everybody -
you get to keep the fruits of your own labor to keep, to sell, to
throw away or whatever you want. It's YOURS. You don't have to feed
that guy's brats."

The following year, after allowing the Free Market to work, the
harvest was so bountiful that they had extra for a huge feast.

Anybody who thinks socialism can work without enforcement by threat
of arms is a fool.

Thanks,
Rich

[Bill Sloman]

Post by Scott Stephens

Post by N. Thornton

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources.

I thought the old were the ones who had learnt stuff, who had more
understanding of life, who had put more into the world. Hard to see
how the old are doing the nonsense stated above.
The obvious solution is to allow people to work. Preventing pension
age people working when they want to is one of the more stupid aspects
of present day society. Quite a few want to and can.

Being in the engineering biz, you ought to know technology changes so
fast and rapidly that fossils are more expense than their worth.

Rubbish. I've been keeping up with the changes in electronics
technology for the last thirty years, and I don't expect to suddenly
lose the capacity now that I've turned sixty.

Post by Scott Stephens
Punks with a year or two experience, that are naive enough to feel cheap and
without a grudge over years of abuse, and foreigners that don't know
what 'normal' is and are content to slave 18 hours a day for a bowl of
rice, are much more profitable.

They may look more profitable, if you don't know enough about the
subject to evaluate the crap that they produce. I tend to look to at
stuff and say "doing it that way produces this well-known problem, for
which there is a well-known solution that my predecessor does not seem
to have known about".

I may not be cheap, but once I've solved a problem to my own
satisfaction, it tends to stay solved.

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely. Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.
--
Scott

Fair enuff Scott - tell me, will this apply to you as well, or as the
author of this scheme would you be exempt from death when your
arbitrary use by date had expired?
Andrew

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely.

---------------
Of course it can, it always has. The specifically different fact
about human groups is precisely that they DO sustain people long
after they are individually productive, and they do this to rescue
the knowledge and skill of the elderly and enhance their sense of
history.

Post by Scott Stephens
Since socialism is based on the collective's best
interest, as determined by our beneficent, enlightened elites,

---------------------------
That's not socialism, that's feudalism, which is the enemy of the
people which caused people to invent socialism in the first place,
to gang up on the strong thieves who could enslave them piece-meal
but not if everyone organized against them.

Post by Scott Stephens
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.

--------------------------------
Any sub-group of the human species who have tried this, HAVE DIED,
obviously, by the simple fact that THERE AREN'T ANY SUCH!

Post by Scott Stephens
Never mind that a mandatory privately-managed insurance program that
wasn't looted by fed-thugs to bribe special interests for votes,

--------------
The rich who own the insurance companies, which own all the banks,
ARE all the special interests!! There are no "fed-thugs" except those
who serve the rich in their disguise as representantives of the People.

Post by Scott Stephens
by
influencing media whores with billions of dollars the FCC refuses to
appropriate. Private insurance could even include disability insurance,
as the fed Social Security program.
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.
--
Scott

-------------
You're a clone child of the post-modern who has been misled about
socialism because you were uncritical of whomever you read. You
have been brainwashed with a preconceived notion of state as enemy
of the People, when the State is the savior and servant of the People,
and it is their only hope to defeat the class of rich thieves who
enslave them.

-Steve

[Scott Stephens]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
The social security pyramid scheme cannot sustain an unproductive,
senile elderly population at the expense of the productive young
indefinitely.

Why are some people taking me seriously?

Post by R. Steve Walz
---------------
Of course it can, it always has. The specifically different fact
about human groups is precisely that they DO sustain people long
after they are individually productive, and they do this to rescue
the knowledge and skill of the elderly and enhance their sense of
history.

And because we love them, and respect life. Individuals love and respect
life.

Governments hire indifferent strangers to give inferior care to children
and the elderly.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
It is only appropriate that a mandatory euthanasia program be
implemented for the old that are degrading the collective and Earth's
resources. This will also eliminate the disparity between the longevity
of races - it isn't fair that whites live longer than blacks, who pay
far more than their fair-share for 'social security'.

--------------------------------
Any sub-group of the human species who have tried this, HAVE DIED,
obviously, by the simple fact that THERE AREN'T ANY SUCH!

Like Stalin? Hitler? Pol Pot? All good communists and socialists.

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by Scott Stephens
Perhaps euthanasia is too unpopular. It is a necessary evil to lie to a
public that can't handle truth. Socialist doctors prescribing toxic
drugs, and interesting new plagues can do what overt regulation can't.

-------------
You're a clone child of the post-modern who has been misled about
socialism because you were uncritical of whomever you read.

No, I've watched its implementations.

Post by R. Steve Walz
You
have been brainwashed with a preconceived notion of state as enemy
of the People, when the State is the savior and servant of the People,
and it is their only hope to defeat the class of rich thieves who
enslave them.

I'm ROTFLMAO.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

[Ban]

Post by Scott Stephens
Why are some people taking me seriously?

That is my question too. Scott I think you have severe personal problems,
feeling rejected, not appreciated, alone. You should not blame parents,
religion, society, lack of freedom or whatever for it. It is your own
decision. If you cannot manage to live your life in peace with yourself,
find some shrink to give you a hand.
No need to troll, waste bandwidth and exite all the similar nutcases here on
SED. If you have something to say about electronics, go ahead, but do not
try to keep this stupid thread alive.