Discussion:
hefty data sheet
Add Reply
john larkin
2025-03-14 22:34:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2

That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?

And what's a spruim?
Bill Sloman
2025-03-15 04:38:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
It seems to be specified on page 11 of the data sheet as an AMD
"Sitara Processors Multicore SoC architecture platform".

It's not an exact acronym, but close enough to make it likely that this
is what they had in mind.

Texas Instruments used to leave inconvenient details out of their data
sheets, but when the .pdf format made it practical for them to publish
huge data sheets they seem to have opted for burying them in a heap of
verbiage.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Liz Tuddenham
2025-03-15 09:35:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
john larkin <***@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

[...]
Post by john larkin
And what's a spruim?
It is a small furry creature that lives behind piles of junk in garages
and garden sheds. Capable of incredible speed, so it is never observed,
it grabs dropped components and hides them in inacessible places to use
as nest-building material during the mating season.
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Don Y
2025-03-15 10:46:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Liz Tuddenham
It is a small furry creature that lives behind piles of junk in garages
and garden sheds. Capable of incredible speed, so it is never observed,
it grabs dropped components and hides them in inacessible places to use
as nest-building material during the mating season.
<grin>

I had a teacher in High School who was convinced of the existence of
"gremlins" (never formally defined). As proof, she would offer the
observation that a book of matches always *disappears* after the
first or second match is struck. She suspected The Gremlins were
fascinated by fire and would confiscate these when no one was looking!

In one of my "systems" classes, the professor was in the habit of posing
problems like:

The PDF for the duration of the interarrival times, in seconds, between
successive vehicles on a rural highway is:
f(t) = 1/12 * e^(-t/12)
Vehicle passings are independant events. (obvious caveats apply)

A wombat requires 12 seconds to cross the road. If he starts his trek
immediately after a vehicle has passed, what is the probability that
he will survive?

Another wombat requires 24 seconds to make the same journey. But,
he's a tougher sort and requires two vehicle strikes to be killed.
If he starts out at a random time, what is the probability that he
will survive?

If both wombats start across the road immediately after a vehicle
passes, what is the probability that exactly one will survive?

Of course, as with all other example problems, one assumes "wombats" are
fictitious creatures (just like Oscar and his lost dog or Al the Bookie).

Imagine my chagrin to discover that such creatures actually exist!
(and, there probably is an Oscar, somewhere, looking for his dog
just as someone named Al is likely making book!)
bitrex
2025-03-15 18:56:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
john larkin
2025-03-15 19:39:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
If you print on both sides, the stack will be about 2 feet high.
Better buy some toner things.

It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
Sergey Kubushyn
2025-03-15 22:29:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
If you print on both sides, the stack will be about 2 feet high.
Better buy some toner things.
It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
Not something special, just a very good datasheet (?). Others just split
this into numerous parts -- reference manuals, programmers' manuals, etc. It
is still as big as this one, just split into multiple parts. Some of those
parts are forgotten to put on their websites, some wrapped in numerous NDAs,
some forgotten to write at all soit makes very difficult to get the whole
picture. We are working with e.g. Rockchip RK3568 right now that is not any
simpler. There IS documentation but it is dispersed over numerous websites
so it takes a lot of effort to find a detailed manual on some parts and one
never knows where it can be found. No army of engineers here, just requires
knowledge and expertise. Just remember, those are NOT el-cheapo
microcontrollers running some RTOS at most. Those are full-blown systems
that usually run Linux kernel which is an enormous thing in itself.

It is very good to have everything in one place. If you look at the TI's
documentation on their DSPs you'll find that it is even bigger. Just split
into tens of documents on particular subsystems so if you want to program
e.g. PWM you should search for a specific documents on PWM subsystem.

The real horror is NXP with their iMX8xyz. They have enormous datasheets (?
they usually called Reference Manuals while the datasheet only has pinouts
and electrical specs) with hundreds of pages copypasted from various IP
documents VERBATIM that takes a lot of space and almost absolutely useless.
Useless because they don't bother telling you how those IPs are built into
their devices, which signals are used, how these signals are mapped to other
parts and package pins, how they can be accessed by the software (register
mapping) and so on. Their documents are enormous with half of their bulk is
totally useless and many parts are missing at all. And nobody there has any
knowledge of those. Everything was great while it was Freescale but turned
to total disaster when they were acquired by NXP.

---
******************************************************************
* ***@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
Don Y
2025-03-16 00:20:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sergey Kubushyn
It is very good to have everything in one place. If you look at the TI's
documentation on their DSPs you'll find that it is even bigger. Just split
into tens of documents on particular subsystems so if you want to program
e.g. PWM you should search for a specific documents on PWM subsystem.
Sadly, they seem to not understand that you can embed hyperlinks in PDF
documents. Why tell me "see section xyz" when you could embed a *link*
to it, RIGHT THERE? (even if a companion document)

And, indexes are a joke (if they exist, at all). Lif3e would be a nightmare
if not *true* PDFs!

I search for "see the" when I open a new document and note if any
other document is referenced as the target. Is there a reason
you can't bring all of these external references *forward* to
a section called "Other documents you may wish to have on hand"?
Martin Brown
2025-03-16 09:27:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
If you print on both sides, the stack will be about 2 feet high.
Better buy some toner things.
Perhaps they are trying for the Guinness Book of Records?
Longest meaningless datasheet.
Post by john larkin
It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
I think there is a lot of duplication from a (very) quick scan.
IOW the authors were paid by the word.
--
Martin Brown
Jeroen Belleman
2025-03-16 19:37:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
If you print on both sides, the stack will be about 2 feet high.
Better buy some toner things.
Perhaps they are trying for the Guinness Book of Records?
Longest meaningless datasheet.
Post by john larkin
It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
I think there is a lot of duplication from a (very) quick scan.
IOW the authors were paid by the word.
Don't you guys simply look for another chip if the manual is
too much to digest?

I would.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2025-03-16 21:05:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 20:37:55 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Martin Brown
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
If you print on both sides, the stack will be about 2 feet high.
Better buy some toner things.
Perhaps they are trying for the Guinness Book of Records?
Longest meaningless datasheet.
Post by john larkin
It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
I think there is a lot of duplication from a (very) quick scan.
IOW the authors were paid by the word.
Don't you guys simply look for another chip if the manual is
too much to digest?
I would.
Jeroen Belleman
That part was recommended to me by our TI rep. I have no interest in
even reading the manual, much less trying to design something with it.

I like simple, like an RP2040 and an Efinix T20.
Martin Brown
2025-03-18 09:25:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Martin Brown
Post by john larkin
It would take an army of engineers to use a chip like that. That would
need a giant market.
I think there is a lot of duplication from a (very) quick scan.
IOW the authors were paid by the word.
Don't you guys simply look for another chip if the manual is
too much to digest?
It piqued my curiosity.

Most of the fancy chips these days have long and large manuals.
(some much better structured than others)
--
Martin Brown
Don Y
2025-03-18 13:09:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Most of the fancy chips these days have long and large manuals.
(some much better structured than others)
In days gone by, the CPU was *JUST* a CPU. You had a separate
data sheet for the UART, counter/timer, DMAC (which was often an
external device), FPU (if supported), MMU (ditto), PWM controller,
display controller, interrupt controller (once you move beyond a
couple of peripherals, managing interrupts with an "8 channel"
interrupt system is problematic), NIC/PHY, "coprocessors",
interprocessor communications, etc.

Nowadays, SoCs bundle all of that in a single package. And,
a designer should at least be aware of what hardware is contained
therein even if only to know how to ensure it is NOT accidentally
activated.

With early generation systems (even those where you pieced
together a bunch of peripheral devices), a big part of the
design process was sorting out how you could leverage the
"extra" bits of hardware available much like using any "extra"
gates you had on-hand.

"I only need one UART; what *could* I do with this OTHER one?"

"Hmmm, counter/timers come in sets of 4 -- how can I make use
of ALL of them instead of just the two that are strictly
necessary?"

The SoC that I'm using has a 1/2/4 core, 64 bit, GHz+ CPU (with
FPU & MMU & EDAC) along with a pair of "real-time" controllers

Memory is supported by 32K L1 (per core) and 512K L2 caches
(shared). In addition to static interfaces to internal
memory, there's support for 16b LPDDR. EDAC on *all* memory.
(the other processors have additional I/D memory to support
their operations).

It's peripheral set includes 2 1588 NICs, 5 I2C channels,
3 SPI, 2 USB2, 2 CAN, 4 timers (per core), UARTs w/ support
for IrDA (slow/medium/fast) and 64 byte Rx&Tx FIFOs, FLASH
interface, SD interface, 2 PWM, 3 quadrature encoders, etc.

I.e., just the "glue logic" to support all of these devices would
exceed the complexity of most early systems.

Did I go *looking* for all of these hardware capabilities in my
selection process? No. They came along for the ride. But, if
you adopt the "computing as a service" idea (24/7/365 availability
instead of "a free-standing device /with a power switch/"),
there are some minimum requirements that can't responsibly be
avoided.

What I *needed* was EDAC support (essential for any device with
any "real" amount of memory, nowadays, esp if reliability is a
design issue; if you just want to write off hardware errors
as "software bugs" then feel free to irresponsibly ignore that!).

A paged MMU (segmented-over-paged would be ideal) is also
essential if you want to host "foreign" code; how else do you
ensure something ADDED to your system behaves well and can be
"contained" in the event it doesn't? Too many "applications"
fail to exploit the hardware in their, e.g., Linux-hosted
environments. Why cram your entire application into a single
process container that lets any part (thread) of it interfere
with any OTHER part? Compartmentalize/Information-hiding
(Software 101). If you can't/haven't set good boundaries in
how your code is *designed*, then expect bugs to abound as
one aspect of your *implementation* stomps on other parts.

["Performance -- IPC has costs". Yeah, right. Hey, just wait
a few months and the hardware will be that much faster to make
your "performance" requirement a moot point! But, waiting
isn't going to make your code any more *robust*!! Why deprive
yourself of a mechanism that can help you do that? Ignorance?]

At least one NIC is essential to communicate with other nodes.
A second let a node can communicate with some *other* network
-based peripheral. 1588 support makes synchronizing distributed
clocks much easier (you can do it *without* that hardware support
but requires working in the weeds and tying your implementation to
specific hardware to get precise -- 10s of ns -- synchronization)

Support for encryption as all of my IPC is actually RPC (RMI); do
you expose the pins of your bus to outsiders during use? Can
others design "add-in cards" for your device? How do you ensure
THOSE behave as intended? (it's YOUR product that will be blamed
for faults induced by THEIR hardware/software)

The DRAM i/f is essential as finding a gigabyte or more of "working
memory" in a SoC is a bit of a stretch, with today's technology.
And, the EDAC has to be external to it as, otherwise, there's no
easy way to KNOW when you are seeing (corrected) errors.

Timers are always "the more, the merrier"! Perhaps the most useful
and versatile I/O device available!

Other *legacy* cruft (I2C, CAN, SPI, UARTs, etc. are largely excess
baggage, nowadays -- at least in *my* application domains). But,
there's often a way to repurpose those capabilities for some
other use.

Extra processors are a boon as much of the costly overhead of a
distributed/open system can be off-loaded into them. E.g., let
one handle scheduling, encrypting and decrypting RPC traffic
instead of moving that task into the application layer. Likewise,
resource accounting and enforcement (how do you prevent foreign
code from tying up resources and effectively compromising your
systems operation? Reliance on a "watchdog" is naive -- THEN
what do you do???)

Lasse Langwadt
2025-03-15 22:02:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruim2
That's 10419 pages. Has anyone seen a bigger data sheet?
And what's a spruim?
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
why would that multicore monster be relevant to that in any way?
Don Y
2025-03-17 03:42:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lasse Langwadt
why would that multicore monster be relevant to that in any way?
IME, clients (bosses?) are pretty clueless about device capabilities,
software efforts, etc. They pick up on some buzz words that happen
to be /en vogue/ and throw them around as if they had real meaning
in the context used.

I had a client ask me if I could implement his product in a *PIC*
(because THAT was /en vogue/). When I looked at the design, it
was all RF signal processing. With *detailed* knowledge of his
domain, I *might* have been able to come up with an approach
that could *use* a PIC. But, I surely wasn't going to be able to
implement his *existing* design in one!

Agile, Python, Perl, PIC, ARM, bananafudgesundae... whatever
they think is meaningful, today...
Don Y
2025-03-16 00:12:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
I need a printed copy to put on someone's desk when they says "8 bit is
obsolete, just use an ARM"
While I've traditionally liked having paper copies of reference
documents, it's just no longer possible. OTOH, most documents, now
(esp ARM) contain a lot of duplication. It's as if they were
machine generated and the machine didn't have conciseness as a
goal.

[I was looking at a page yesterday that was just a giant table
describing the format of a particular register. Every bit's
description included a sentence: "For more detail, see the
description of the Whatchamacallit in the BlahBlahBlah section"
Is there a reason this can't be stated *once* as applying to
every bit?]

In an earlier post
(snews://news.eternal-september.org:563/vhsc2o$1m1kj$***@dont-email.me),
I mentioned that the "datasheet" for the CPU I'm using is 16,000 pages
(15,863). And, that just describes the *hardware* on the assumption that
you already know how to use the features laid out, there.

There are also manuals for the two different types of CPUs contained within,
the FPU, the MMU, etc.

Plus, app notes to assist in system design and board layout.

Most users have to rely on a third party to provide a "subassembly"
(hardware and software) that they can use -- so they don't have to grok
all of this detail. To them, they become black boxes with very little
understanding of what's inside or how to fix it when/if the need
arises.

There's nothing wrong with using an 8b (or 16b, 4b, 1b) MCU -- *if*
appropriate for the task at hand. But, once you add a network stack
to a device, you discover that the CPU is likely overtaxed (I wrote
my first stack on a Z180 and it would struggle to keep up with a
*10*Mb network)

OTOH, the development environment afforded by more capable MCUs is,
IMHO, well worth the increase in product cost; it makes it easier to
design with security and reliability in from the ground up (instead
of layering those things on, as an afterthought). Abstraction
has a performance cost.

History teaches us that better will always get cheaper so why
start on a year (or more) long development effort with an MCU
that is appropriate to *today* (instead of tomorrow or next year)?
Loading...