Discussion:
Trump's latest lunacy
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Bill Sloman
2025-03-20 14:33:08 UTC
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I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.

The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.

It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
manufacturer.

They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.

When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
Australia would act on such advertisements.

We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
Benefits Scheme.

There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
illegal drugs do get consumed here,

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase

So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
patients who could afford to pay.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
bitrex
2025-03-21 06:15:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
"Free trade" as practiced in the US for the past ~40 years was largely
only one kind of free trade, outsourcing of manufacturing and
low-skilled labor. There's been little free trade in white collar
services like doctors (who get paid 2 to 3x what their counterparts in
Western Europe get paid) or medicines, and copyright terms and patent
protections only got more stringent.

That is to say the white collar world made out and there was a side
benefit that blue collar ire at wage stagnation and high prices has been
politically useful. As it is of course the fault of transgender
athletes, DEI, and too much woke messaging in movies and TV.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-21 10:14:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
"Free trade" as practiced in the US for the past ~40 years was largely
only one kind of free trade, outsourcing of manufacturing and
low-skilled labor. There's been little free trade in white collar
services like doctors (who get paid 2 to 3x what their counterparts in
Western Europe get paid) or medicines, and copyright terms and patent
protections only got more stringent.
That is to say the white collar world made out and there was a side
benefit that blue collar ire at wage stagnation and high prices has been
politically useful. As it is of course the fault of transgender
athletes, DEI, and too much woke messaging in movies and TV.
There's a book about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

It's just a demonstration that grossly high levels of income inequality
are socially damaging. The authors compare American states with one
another, and advanced industrial countries (including America). Levels
of income inequality are lower in European countries.

The differences between American states show the same pattern as the
(bigger) differences between countries.

Trump does exploit the differences and has done well out of them. He's
the last person who would try to reduce them.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Klaus Kragelund
2025-03-24 00:21:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.
It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
manufacturer.
They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.
When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
Australia would act on such advertisements.
We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
Benefits Scheme.
There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
illegal drugs do get consumed here,
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase
So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
patients who could afford to pay.
I was in the US last week for a conference.

The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.

Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)

More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
year for 15 years).

I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.
Gerhard Hoffmann
2025-03-24 08:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Klaus Kragelund
I was in the US last week for a conference.
The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.
Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)
A friend of mine wanted to attend the launch of a payload in FLA
that we had worked on for years. He canceled that a few days ago
because of that newfangled DOGE shit. You cannot let Trump's
ankle biters check / copy your company laptop.

I remember I didn't even get the soldering procedure for contemporary
Virtex FPGAs, let alone the chips, for stuff to end up on the ISS,
so I had to use prehistoric ones.

Needless to say, there won't be Xilinx in future projects here and it
won't be FLA but Kourou for takeoff.
It does not pay in the long run to piss off people.

Gerhard
john larkin
2025-03-24 14:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by Klaus Kragelund
I was in the US last week for a conference.
The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.
Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)
A friend of mine wanted to attend the launch of a payload in FLA
that we had worked on for years. He canceled that a few days ago
because of that newfangled DOGE shit. You cannot let Trump's
ankle biters check / copy your company laptop.
I remember I didn't even get the soldering procedure for contemporary
Virtex FPGAs, let alone the chips, for stuff to end up on the ISS,
so I had to use prehistoric ones.
Needless to say, there won't be Xilinx in future projects here and it
won't be FLA but Kourou for takeoff.
Take a look at Efinix.
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
It does not pay in the long run to piss off people.
Think so?
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Gerhard Hoffmann
2025-03-27 23:14:28 UTC
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Permalink
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
I'm just looking at this here:

<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
john larkin
2025-03-28 02:28:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
Jeroen Belleman
2025-03-28 09:40:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.

Jeroen Belleman
john larkin
2025-03-28 09:55:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
Jeroen Belleman
2025-03-28 10:09:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
The wanted me to switch of my ad-blocker. Sorry, but no.

Regarding the subject line, it's eerily quiet here. The
DoD top brass must be furious, no?

Jeroen Belleman
Bill Sloman
2025-03-28 12:42:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
It may have higher standards than you are used to. And why search the
German web-site? I can actually read German - I had to do "science
German" as part of my undergraduate science degree, but American
universities don't seem to have that kind of requirement.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Joe Gwinn
2025-03-28 17:11:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
shape until success, a few seconds.

Joe
Jeroen Belleman
2025-03-28 18:26:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
shape until success, a few seconds.
Joe
Maybe it has a robot doing it for you.

Jeroen Belleman
Joe Gwinn
2025-03-28 22:33:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 19:26:05 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by Joe Gwinn
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
I didn't have any problem using Bing, but I did have to pass an
are-you-human test consisting of holding the cursor down on the test
shape until success, a few seconds.
Joe
Maybe it has a robot doing it for you.
Well, yes. It's a robot trying to tell if I'm a kindred robot.

Joe - beep!
wmartin
2025-03-29 20:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 10:40:53 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
Post by Jeroen Belleman
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
It's an FPGA in a 324-ball BGA. A simple search on type number
brings it up easily enough.
Jeroen Belleman
Digikey.de refuses to believe that I'm a human.
must be all those monkey jokes...

Chris Jones
2025-03-28 09:48:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
Maybe the US site will work:

https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Gerhard Hoffmann
2025-03-28 10:09:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Jones
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
     >
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Funny. in .de the price is €21.94, in the US it's $36.59 for one.
Tariffs at work already??

Gerhard
john larkin
2025-03-28 16:41:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 20:48:34 +1100, Chris Jones
Post by Chris Jones
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by john larkin
Take a look at Efinix.
<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
Post by john larkin
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Gerhard
Digikey doesn't want to show me (or sell me) anything. OK, deal.
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/cologne-chip/CCGM1A1-BGA324/16087879
I'd be wary about using an FPGA from a newbie company that has one
product. I wonder what their tool set is like.

Efinix is another fabless FPGA newcomer, and we are using theirs. At
$10 each, we can guy a giant backup stock. My kids say that the
software tools look like they were written in a garage, and they mean
that as a compliment.
john larkin
2025-03-24 14:21:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
Post by Klaus Kragelund
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.
It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
manufacturer.
They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.
When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
Australia would act on such advertisements.
We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
Benefits Scheme.
There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
illegal drugs do get consumed here,
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase
So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
patients who could afford to pay.
I was in the US last week for a conference.
The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.
Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
year for 15 years).
Where was that?
Post by Klaus Kragelund
I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.
There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.

Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
problems.
Klaus Kragelund
2025-03-25 00:46:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
Post by Klaus Kragelund
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.
It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
manufacturer.
They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.
When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
Australia would act on such advertisements.
We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
Benefits Scheme.
There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
illegal drugs do get consumed here,
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase
So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
patients who could afford to pay.
I was in the US last week for a conference.
The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.
Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
year for 15 years).
Where was that?
Atlanta, Georgia

Apec-conf.org
Post by john larkin
Post by Klaus Kragelund
I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.
There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now. Some
have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.
Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
problems.
Most of the peope I saw that was sleeping on the street was black
people, many with obvious mental problems

One family a collegaue of mine talked to, the husband had a tripple
bypass.They had to sell everything they had to pay hospital bills. They
were staying at a hotel, with no plan for what to do when the money runs
out.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-25 03:08:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 01:21:24 +0100, Klaus Kragelund
Post by Klaus Kragelund
Post by Bill Sloman
I may be being unfair here, but the latest claim amongst American who
like Trump's tariffs is that the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits
Scheme is a non-tariff barrier to trade. They may be the lunatics
involved here rather than Trump himself.
The Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme buys medicines which have
been approved as effective and cost-effective, and sells them on cheaply
to patients whose doctors have prescribed the medicines.
It's no kind of barrier to trade - anybody who wants a particular drug
can buy it directly from the manufacturer at a price they negotiate with
manufacturer.
They won't have the buying power of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme,
which buys in much larger volumes, and employs people who know exactly
what they are buying, and who the alternative suppliers are.
When I read the New Yorker I see ads for medicines aimed directly at
consumers. I don't see them in periodicals aimed only at the Australian
market, not because they are illegal, but because not enough people in
Australia would act on such advertisements.
We all know that if a drug is safe and effective we will be able to get
more cheaply through our doctors and the Australian Pharmaceutical
Benefits Scheme.
There is a lively market for illegal drugs in Australia - tests on the
outflow from our sewage systems demonstrate that a lot cocaine and other
illegal drugs do get consumed here,
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/australia-drug-use-
wastewater-testing-methamphetamine-increase
So the US pharmaceutical industry wants to operate with the same kind of
freedom as illegal drug traffickers. They wouldn't sell as much - the
Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme sell to patients at less than purchase
cost, on the basis that curing patients is cheaper than treating them
indefinitely, so we buy more than we would if individual patients had to
pay the full cost - but they might be able to extort higher prices from
patients who could afford to pay.
I was in the US last week for a conference.
The mood has really shifted to the worse. Lot's of talk on the radio on
people going bankrupt, how to survive the coming years, DOGE violating
constitutional rights.
Before going, I had to check my text messages and online social
profiles, to be sure I had not made a comment about Trump. (many
examples of people send to prison for just not linking Trump)
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each
year for 15 years).
Where was that?
Post by Klaus Kragelund
I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.
There are about 11 million illegal immigrants in the USA now.
There always have been - not perhaps 11 million, but plenty.
Post by john larkin
Some have found housing - competing with everyone else - and some have not.
So what. Most of them seem to have found work - of a sort.
Post by john larkin
Illegal drugs don't help. Controlling the border will help both
problems.
Australia has no land borders and we do pretty well at keeping out
illegal immigrants. Analysis of our waste water reveals tons of illegal
drugs. You can have excellent control of human migration and still have
a problem with illegal drugs.

Trump pretends to be obsessed with illegal immigrants and illegal drugs
because it plays well with gullible suckers like you.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Don Y
2025-03-24 15:40:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem. It's always amusing to see how
these "geniuses" never seem to take on REAL problems -- just simple
"technology" problems! As if no one else would EVER have thought of
making an electric car or a portable phone.

Sadly, they are problems that easily tug on heart strings. So,
can be exploited to encourage folks who want to help to subsidize
such efforts. IME, the only ones who benefit, there, are the
ones leading those efforts ("Well, of COURSE I have to be paid
for my time -- look at how much time this is taking!!")

[We have a group, here, that claims to provide "support" for homeless
youth (high school age). But, the support is limited to just handing
out cash that has been donated by others "trying to help". There's
no counseling. No skills in budgeting. Lifestyle mentoring. etc.
Just take in donations, skim a bit off the top (15%?) and hand the
money over to "needy youth". I'm sure the *30* NON-homeless people
who manage to gain employment doing this are happy for the effort, though!]
I hope it gets better soon and this is just a temporary situation.
All systems need periodic resets. Even if only to force a "rethink".

We had a "citizen's initiative" to propose a "half cent" (per dollar
spent) increase in our city sales tax. To be imposed for a period of
ten years. To support our *zoo* (!!).

This passed.

Of course, the zoo is going crazy spending all this windfall. No one
has considered what they will do when the tax expires... will the animals
suddenly not need to eat? Will the newly constructed buildings not need
repairs? Will the extra staff suddenly become redundant?

Recently, an attempt was made to impose yet another "half cent" sales
tax increase -- to pay for "public safety"; ambulances, fire equipment,
HOMELESS SHELTERS, etc.

Gee, folks decided this was too much! "Find some other way to do those
things."

I guess no one thought of the cumulative effect of all these "half cents"
(there have been several) and prioritized them...
john larkin
2025-03-24 18:02:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
Post by Don Y
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem.
It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-25 03:26:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
Post by Don Y
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem.
It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.
Providing places for people to live is a major industry.

Looking after people who can't afford housing is a problem all societies
tackle, some quite a lot more effectively than others.

Governments that call themselves socialists tend make more of a fuss
about getting the homeless off the streets. Western European socialists
governments tend to have enough tax revenue to be able to do an
effective job.

Sweden is unique in getting much the same outcomes for children of
single parent families as you see for children whose parents have stayed
together, but most Western European countries do better than the USA.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
bitrex
2025-03-25 14:48:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
Post by Don Y
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem.
It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course,
conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.

No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.
john larkin
2025-03-25 15:04:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
Post by Don Y
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem.
It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course,
conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.
No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.
There are a billion people who would move into the USA, or into
Dallas, if we offer them free housing and food and medical care.

And there are thousands of consultants and providers and NGOs who will
manage the money.

Basic conservation principles are not conspiracy theories.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-25 15:54:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by john larkin
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:40:46 -0700, Don Y
Post by Don Y
More homeless people than I have seen before (I have been going each year for
15 years).
Homelessness is a persistent problem.
It's a persistent, gigabuck industry.
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless
anymore, depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course,
conservatives aren't a fan of that idea, either.
No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.
There are a billion people who would move into the USA, or into
Dallas, if we offer them free housing and food and medical care.
Western Europe offers better social security than the USA, including
socialised medicine, and while they do get a lot of migrants, they don't
get billions of them.

Fairly obviously, what's on offer isn't free housing, food and medical
care, even if they do manage the undeserving poor more generously than
the US seems willing to.
Post by john larkin
And there are thousands of consultants and providers and NGOs who will
manage the money.
It's job - much like any other.
Post by john larkin
Basic conservation principles are not conspiracy theories.
But posting absurd claims about the poor is much the same kind of
misinformation as the junk peddled by conspiracy theory enthusiasts.

It make the people who peddle it feel good, if they are too dumb to
notice that it is meaningless twaddle.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Don Y
2025-03-25 15:24:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No. There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.

Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".

Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living). No one wants to
"invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!

A lot of "charity" produces little "result". We've canvased lots
of them with an eye towards our estate planning. If you hold
their feet to the fire and ask for documented results of their
past efforts, most will timidly admit that they haven't met
their own stated goals!

["How many of these battered women have you managed to give new
lives through your efforts?" "None, really. They all end up
back in the same sorts of situations that led them to coming here"
"Then, why would I want to gift you anything if your 'results' are
only temporary? What is the 'lifetime maintenance cost' for these
people that you CLAIM to be serving? Aren't you obviously doing
something WRONG??"]
depriving said "gigabuck industry" of their revenue. Of course, conservatives
aren't a fan of that idea, either.
No actual ideas, just complaints, lists of enemies, and conspiracy theories.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-25 16:08:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".
Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
"invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!
A lot of "charity" produces little "result".  We've canvased lots
of them with an eye towards our estate planning.  If you hold
their feet to the fire and ask for documented results of their
past efforts, most will timidly admit that they haven't met
their own stated goals!
["How many of these battered women have you managed to give new
lives through your efforts?"  "None, really.  They all end up
back in the same sorts of situations that led them to coming here".
The psychological problems that lead some women to latch onto men who go
in for coercive control aren't easy to treat, but it's still worth
offering refuges for women (and their kids) who have got stuck with
particularly revolting partners.

It's the same kind of problem as alcohol and drug dependence and problem
gambling. The fact that he problems are hard to deal with is not a
reason to ignore them.
"Then, why would I want to gift you anything if your 'results' are
only temporary?  What is the 'lifetime maintenance cost' for these
people that you CLAIM to be serving?  Aren't you obviously doing
something WRONG??"]
Whatever they are doing is less wrong than trying to ignore the problem.
It's not as effective as we would like it to be, but it seems to be
better than nothing.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
bitrex
2025-03-25 16:12:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".
Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of
Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
be forced to.

They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious
drug addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs.
fighting one of the most complex and poorly understood conditions in
modern medicine, with relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even
with the best care money can buy.

Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without
reliable cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have a
better shot at it with stable housing.

But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence
based medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be
wasted there for little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far exceeds
the little result that could be obtained by cheaper means.
Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
"invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!
There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new
market-rate the prices on older stock will come down, there's a certain
logic to it but proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an example of a
city that did it "right."

Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the
better part of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost
generation to help keep their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban
policy.

Meanwhile the crisis is likely to only get more pressing in the US as
housing and particularly rental inventory remains low, and use of AI
tools to screen renters is bringing the same "fairness" to the rental
market as resume panopticons brought to the IT hiring business.
Don Y
2025-03-25 17:20:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
*Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
*checks* to homeless youth.

All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
current issues.

E.g., allowing them to claim the need for "emergency relief"
(a special "exception" that is put in place to handle those
"emergency situations") to buy food -- when they have spent
their regular stipend check on something *frivolous* doesn't
teach them to avoid the wasteful spending; you've bailed them
out, again!
Post by bitrex
Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".
Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of Americans
seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem to believe that
drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to be forced to.
Many also suffer from mental illnesses. Neither "problem" has quick,
easy cures. Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
that had *put* them in that situation.

Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).
Post by bitrex
They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious drug
addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs. fighting one of
the most complex and poorly understood conditions in modern medicine, with
relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even with the best care money can buy.
No, but folks who don't *commit* to recovery sure as shit aren't going
to STUMBLE into sobriety!

Give every "drunk" Antabuse and you can eliminate alcoholism, right?
(I.e., if the "drunk" isn't committed to getting sober, Antabuse
is just going to piss him off)
Post by bitrex
Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without reliable
cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have a better shot at
it with stable housing.
Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
etc.

Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.
Post by bitrex
But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence based
medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be wasted there for
little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far exceeds the little result that
could be obtained by cheaper means.
Problems only get solved when you are *committed* to solving them.
If (like the homeless youth issue, above) all you are doing is
paying lip service to the problem, you are effectively just
rationalizing the NEED for your paycheck.

I give my time to organizations that, I see, produce results. As
*I* am involved, I can bear witness to those results -- instead of
being duped/misled by glossy annual reports.

[This subject -- charities -- often comes up at dinner parties;
friends/friends-of-friends wondering where to put their donations.
The first thing I tell them is to volunteer *at* the organization
so they can *see* how their monies will be spent. "Gee, they just
bought another building! How many buildings does it take to
HAND OUT STIPEND CHECKS???"]
Post by bitrex
Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
"invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!
There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new market-rate
the prices on older stock will come down, there's a certain logic to it but
proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an example of a city that did it "right."
Prices only come down when there is a "surplus" (for some definition of
"surplus") of units. We have seen a significant up-tick in home prices
as the influx of Californians (who are used to paying ridiculously
high prices for tiny plots of land) puts a bias in what buyers are
willing to pay for a given property.

[A friend put $200K into a small home he purchased for $500K. And,
thought nothing of it! Really? What was "missing" that needed a
$200K upgrade? You've gained no extra floor space. You have the
same types of appliances (if you consider them part of the property).
The yard is the same. So...?]
Post by bitrex
Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the better part
of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost generation to help keep
their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban policy.
Japanese homes (according to a neighbor who lived there for many
years and married a japanese woman) are considerably different
than US homes.

[And, THEY have to worry about Godjira!!]
Post by bitrex
Meanwhile the crisis is likely to only get more pressing in the US as housing
and particularly rental inventory remains low, and use of AI tools to screen
renters is bringing the same "fairness" to the rental market as resume
panopticons brought to the IT hiring business.
There is nothing that inherently limits the ratio of properties to
residents. Most of my friends have at least two homes, choosing
to live here in the Winter months and elsewhere in our Summers.

If they can afford the outlay, upkeep and taxes, what's to stop
them from making additional purchases?

[I would find multiple homes maddening. Imagine NOT being able
to find "something". In the back of your mind, you'd always be
wondering if it's at (one of) the other house(s). If you stop
searching before you find it -- based on that assumption -- then
imagine BEING at that other house and discovering IT'S NOT THERE!
I.e., you gave up your initial search, prematurely! And, the
possibility of this happening would always leave you "uncertain"
as to your best strategy...]
bitrex
2025-03-25 19:03:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
*Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
*checks* to homeless youth.
All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
current issues.
Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to modify
their behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some success,
at least at that stage of development) use to modify the behaviors of
their naughty schoolchildren tends to be ineffective, what a lot of them
needed was tough love at age 8 rather than the capricious and
dysfunctional parents they actually got.

But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of
these citizens far too late.

My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as bad
as some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a
fighting chance. Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the
day didn't get as fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.
Post by Don Y
Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
that had *put* them in that situation.
Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).
Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I
don't think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them out
to be.

Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to
show someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_
before you show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment,
not a particularly effective method of enticing anyone back into society.

Or just don't do anything but have noble ideals and they'll find the
money from the copper in the walls of the development near you and maybe
find housing in your shed or under the bridge in your neighborhood, up
to you.
Post by Don Y
Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
etc.
Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.
Even people with housing often don't have reliable access to those
things, much less without it!

You are sho'nuff fucked if you don't have secure housing in America.
Difficult to even enumerate all the additional ways a person is fucked
without it, on top of whatever mental health and/or addiction issue
they're suffering from.
Don Y
2025-03-25 20:18:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
*Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
*checks* to homeless youth.
All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
current issues.
Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to modify their
behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some success, at least at
that stage of development) use to modify the behaviors of their naughty
schoolchildren tends to be ineffective, what a lot of them needed was tough
love at age 8 rather than the capricious and dysfunctional parents they
actually got.
That ignores the problem. You have to understand the problem
before you can propose/develop a solution for it. Otherwise,
you are just throwing money and effort at it and "hoping for the best"
But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of these
citizens far too late.
The State doesn't have the patience to deal with these problems.
Why should the state have to fix the results of poor parenting,
poor environment, etc.?

If it *should*, then THAT has to become a priority. Otherwise,
The State does what is most expedient (which may not be best nor
cheapest -- politicians tend not to worry about details...)
My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as bad as
some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a fighting chance.
Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the day didn't get as
fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.
Post by Don Y
Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
that had *put* them in that situation.
Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).
Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I don't
think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them out to be.
Everyone wants their donations (which are manifestations of working hours
out of their earlier lives) to be used effectively. It's rare that someone
will willingly make a large donation (time or money) in the HOPE of some
positive result -- absent any real guarantees!
Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to show
someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_ before you
show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment, not a particularly
effective method of enticing anyone back into society.
We have a significant homelessness problem. In part, because our
climate is more tolerant of living out-of-doors (I knew a guy who
lived in a TENT in his mom's back yard -- she forbid him in the
house; long story). Part because we have a fair bit of "free"
services (e.g., one can ride public transportation "for free"
instead of relying on someone to transport you -- undoubtedly for
a "cut" of your take -- to your "panhandling intersection").
And, because the police tend to be a bit more tolerant than in
other locales.

If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?

These problems are larger than "individuals". And, tend to require
more expertise than "well meaning groups" have available.

[I looked into working with a group that builds tiny homes -- REALLY
tiny -- for homeless folks. A local church had offered to allow
them to be sited on the church's land. A business was offering
raw materials. But, the folks behind the effort were clueless as
to how to do carpentry, what local ordinances required for sanitation,
drainage issues, etc. But, they were eager to have the local TV
crew on hand for their meeting! (Nothing came of their effort.
Not even *one* "shelter"!)]
Or just don't do anything but have noble ideals and they'll find the money from
the copper in the walls of the development near you and maybe find housing in
your shed or under the bridge in your neighborhood, up to you.
Post by Don Y
Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
etc.
Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.
Even people with housing often don't have reliable access to those things, much
less without it!
So, which problems do you address first? Given that there is limited
resources (time/money) to apply to any of them.

I spend most of my volunteer hours trying to educate disadvantaged
kids (STEAM, literacy). The results will likely not be evident in
the short term. But, I have to think that an education helps one
avoid some of the pitfalls that they might face, otherwise.

How much of this falls on THEIR shoulders?
You are sho'nuff fucked if you don't have secure housing in America. Difficult
to even enumerate all the additional ways a person is fucked without it, on top
of whatever mental health and/or addiction issue they're suffering from.
Bill Sloman
2025-03-26 03:19:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
*Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
*checks* to homeless youth.
All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
current issues.
Treating adults like naughty grade school children and trying to
modify their behaviors using the methods parents (sometimes with some
success, at least at that stage of development) use to modify the
behaviors of their naughty schoolchildren tends to be ineffective,
what a lot of them needed was tough love at age 8 rather than the
capricious and dysfunctional parents they actually got.
That ignores the problem.  You have to understand the problem
before you can propose/develop a solution for it.  Otherwise,
you are just throwing money and effort at it and "hoping for the best"
Post by bitrex
But the state's usual fashion of tough love tends to get to most of
these citizens far too late.
The State doesn't have the patience to deal with these problems.
Why should the state have to fix the results of poor parenting,
poor environment, etc.?
If it *should*, then THAT has to become a priority.  Otherwise,
The State does what is most expedient (which may not be best nor
cheapest -- politicians tend not to worry about details...)
Post by bitrex
My folks were more dysfunctional and capricious than many but not as
bad as some and I had some other more positive influences, so I got a
fighting chance. Other members of "the wrong crowd" I knew back in the
day didn't get as fighting a chance and I visit their graves sometimes.
Post by Don Y
Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
that had *put* them in that situation.
Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).
Yes, the "exceptional cases" are indeed who you're working for, but I
don't think they're quite as uncommon as you seem to be making them
out to be.
Everyone wants their donations (which are manifestations of working hours
out of their earlier lives) to be used effectively.  It's rare that someone
will willingly make a large donation (time or money) in the HOPE of some
positive result -- absent any real guarantees!
Dealing with other people's problems doesn't offer the option of
guaranteed results. Everybody is different (even identical twins).
Post by bitrex
Part of the point of "throwing stuff and money" is because you have to
show someone love and trust who's likely never experienced it _at all_
before you show them tough love or it just seems like more punishment,
not a particularly effective method of enticing anyone back into society.
We have a significant homelessness problem.  In part, because our
climate is more tolerant of living out-of-doors (I knew a guy who
lived in a TENT in his mom's back yard -- she forbid him in the
house; long story).  Part because we have a fair bit of "free"
services (e.g., one can ride public transportation "for free"
instead of relying on someone to transport you -- undoubtedly for
a "cut" of your take -- to your "panhandling intersection").
And, because the police tend to be a bit more tolerant than in
other locales.
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"?  Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner?  Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
It might be wise to find out enough about him to get into a state where
you can see what might work for him. Different individuals have
different problems and different capabilities. They also pose different
kinds of threats. Finding out a bit about them, as individuals, is a
wise precaution, as well as the charitable approach.
These problems are larger than "individuals".  And, tend to require
more expertise than "well meaning groups" have available.
The problem is always the individual. Lumping people together and trying
to apply a one-size-fits-all solution is a reliable route to disaster.
<snip>
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Jasen Betts
2025-03-28 22:51:36 UTC
Reply
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Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.
--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні
Don Y
2025-03-28 23:06:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.
But *is* he a "neighbor"? Or, just someone who happens to
be sleeping nearby?

"Neighbors" make a commitment to the neighborhood and
adopt the practices and customs of THEIR neighbors.
"A guy in a tent" makes no such investment.
Jasen Betts
2025-03-29 03:46:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.
But *is* he a "neighbor"? Or, just someone who happens to
be sleeping nearby?
"Neighbors" make a commitment to the neighborhood and
adopt the practices and customs of THEIR neighbors.
"A guy in a tent" makes no such investment.
how can you tell merely by how his dwelling is constructed?

It seems like you some respect money more than people.
--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні
Don Y
2025-03-29 05:10:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Don Y
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
You've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.
But *is* he a "neighbor"? Or, just someone who happens to
be sleeping nearby?
"Neighbors" make a commitment to the neighborhood and
adopt the practices and customs of THEIR neighbors.
"A guy in a tent" makes no such investment.
how can you tell merely by how his dwelling is constructed?
Because there are building and sanitation codes that GOVERN
residential areas.

There are 5,267 (!) non-profits operating in the city. Each
with its own mission statement. At least 11 claim to service
"the homeless" (without further qualification).

There are many that act to feed the hungry. Others offer counseling
for domestic violence, substance abuse, etc.

There is at least one *park* in the city where it is an open
secret that the city doesn't harass homeless (as long as they
don't set up "encampments").

There are numerous "open areas" that don't border on (or in) residential
or business areas.

I.e., there are numerous services available to these populations.

When they "settle" in neighborhoods, they inevitably attract the
attention of police/fire/postal workers (because most neighborhoods
have a significant number of those types of employees in residence;
I can point to at least 8 residences in our small subdivision).

It is not uncommon to come across a police action where these folks
are being arrested for narcotics possession. Or, for starting a
"campfire" that got out of hand and turned into a brush fire. Or,
for going through people's mailboxes. Or, vandalizing vehicles.

It seems like one should want NOT to "stand out" in that sort
of situation.
Post by Jasen Betts
It seems like you some respect money more than people.
I volunteer (at least) 10-12 hours per week, every week, for more than
20 years addressing different "at risk" populations. How much of YOUR
time (or money) do you give? How many "tents" in YOUR neighborhood?
Bill Sloman
2025-03-29 04:38:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"?  Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner?  Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
You've got a new neighbor, act appropriately.
But *is* he a "neighbor"?  Or, just someone who happens to
be sleeping nearby?
"Neighbors" make a commitment to the neighborhood and
adopt the practices and customs of THEIR neighbors.
"A guy in a tent" makes no such investment.
He does if he's got any sense. He's violated a community norm in not
spending a lot of money on his accommodation, but if you haven't got
that kind of money it pays to work harder on keeping your neighbors happy.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Jasen Betts
2025-03-28 23:04:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
If someone sets up a tent on the "wild" side of our back fence,
should I just "feel sorry for him"? Run over and give him some cash?
Invite him to dinner? Will ANY of these things actually make a
difference -- or, just encourage others to come by for their share?
Hypothetically you've got a new neighbor, act apropriately.
--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні
Bill Sloman
2025-03-26 03:01:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
So just build houses for the homeless and then they won't be homeless anymore,
No.  There will *still* be homeless people, regardless of the level of
support that you provide.
Sure, there are no perfect solutions. So what.
*Expecting* it to be solvable by "mere handwaving" is naive.
Like the example I gave of the organization, here, that hands
*checks* to homeless youth.
Except that they probably didn't do only that. You saw that as the only
thing that they did, and that put you off looking harder.
Post by Don Y
All THAT does is enable them to engage in the same behaviors
that have kept them from "settling down" and overcoming their
current issues.
If that was all they did.
Post by Don Y
E.g., allowing them to claim the need for "emergency relief"
(a special "exception" that is put in place to handle those
"emergency situations") to buy food -- when they have spent
their regular stipend check on something *frivolous* doesn't
teach them to avoid the wasteful spending; you've bailed them
out, again!
Few aid agencies are that naive. You want an excuse not to give them
money, so you ignore a few crucila details.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
Unless you resort to "institutionalizing" people "for their own good".
Many of he homeless we're discussing are drug-addicted, and lots of
Americans seem to want that for the seriously drug addicted. They seem
to believe that drug addicts who aren't "trying to get better" need to
be forced to.
Many also suffer from mental illnesses.  Neither "problem" has quick,
easy cures.  Throwing staff and money at it isn't likely going to
achieve any positive results -- except for the exceptional cases
that manage to pull their shit together AND leave the lifestyle
that had *put* them in that situation.
Throwing staff an money at it probably will produce some positive
results - more of them than not doing anything.
Post by Don Y
Going back to "the same old crowd" (of friends) is likely going to put
them back where they started (on their failed trajectory).
Everybody knows that, but trying to isolate people from their
acquaintances does generate a lot of resistance. Humans are social
animals, and weaning people away from their regular acquaintances is
painful. I've moved between countries several times during my life -
Australia to the UK to the Netherlands and back to Australia - and it
isn't easy.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
They seem to be under the misapprehension that recovery from serious
drug addiction is a matter of like, finding the right therapist vs.
fighting one of the most complex and poorly understood conditions in
modern medicine, with relapse rates worse than the worst cancers even
with the best care money can buy.
No, but folks who don't *commit* to recovery sure as shit aren't going
to STUMBLE into sobriety!
There are degrees of commitment, and the kind of mentors who want
fanatical commitment to their ideology are best avoided.
Post by Don Y
Give every "drunk" Antabuse and you can eliminate alcoholism, right?
They've got to keep on taking it.
Post by Don Y
(I.e., if the "drunk" isn't committed to getting sober, Antabuse
is just going to piss him off).
There are lots of additional ways it can piss them off. It doesn't seem
to be all that helpful in practice.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
Unfortunately the outcome of many severe disease processes without
reliable cures is death. But the ones who are destined to recover have
a better shot at it with stable housing.
Healthy foods, access to good medical care, good support/social networks,
etc.
Housing, by itself, doesn't do much.
But it tends to be a necessary condition for all the other support.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
But yes, institutionalization and forced treatment with non-evidence
based medicine is doomed to fail and the amount of money that can be
wasted there for little result (and taxpayer outrage at it) far
exceeds the little result that could be obtained by cheaper means.
Problems only get solved when you are *committed* to solving them.
But there are degrees of commitment, and too much commitment can be
unhelpful - more so if some authority figure is insisting on it.
Post by Don Y
If (like the homeless youth issue, above) all you are doing is
paying lip service to the problem, you are effectively just
rationalizing the NEED for your paycheck.
That's your perception of what was going on, which gave you a great
excuse for not giving them money.
Post by Don Y
I give my time to organizations that, I see, produce results.  As
*I* am involved, I can bear witness to those results -- instead of
being duped/misled by glossy annual reports.
But you aren't all that skilled in assessing the results.
Post by Don Y
[This subject -- charities -- often comes up at dinner parties;
friends/friends-of-friends wondering where to put their donations.
The first thing I tell them is to volunteer *at* the organization
so they can *see* how their monies will be spent.  "Gee, they just
bought another building!  How many buildings does it take to
HAND OUT STIPEND CHECKS???"]
One dinner party I attended as graduate student had a rather
conservative graduate student sounding off like that. My female
companion - who is now a professor of sociology - had been stuck with
doing preliminary interviews for the Melbourne Poverty Survey - and she
briefly pointed that he had got a lot of his facts wrong. He looked like
an idiot, but it didn't change his beliefs.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
Housing needs to be *affordable* and sited in locations that folks
will be comfortable living (and MAKING a living).  No one wants to
"invest" in places where the only folks who will want to habitate
can't afford to provide sufficient profit for the investor -- esp
if there are other places where they can make a bigger, quicker buck!
There's a trickle-down theory of housing that if you just build new
market-rate the prices on older stock will come down, there's a
certain logic to it but proponents sometimes use Tokyo Japan as an
example of a city that did it "right."
Prices only come down when there is a "surplus" (for some definition of
"surplus") of units.  We have seen a significant up-tick in home prices
as the influx of Californians (who are used to paying ridiculously
high prices for tiny plots of land) puts a bias in what buyers are
willing to pay for a given property.
[A friend put $200K into a small home he purchased for $500K.  And,
thought nothing of it!  Really?  What was "missing" that needed a
$200K upgrade?  You've gained no extra floor space.  You have the
same types of appliances (if you consider them part of the property).
The yard is the same.  So...?]
And you will probably never find out. My wife and I spent money on all
three of the houses we bought as we moved from Brighton UK to Cambridge
UK to Nijmegen in the Netherlands. We had different needs from the
people who have previously owned the houses, and enough money to
reorganise the houses in ways that suited us.
Post by Don Y
Post by bitrex
Japan is a terrible example of doing something "right" they had the
better part of two decades of economic stagnation and a whole lost
generation to help keep their housing costs low, it wasn't just urban
policy.
Japanese homes (according to a neighbor who lived there for many
years and married a Japanese woman) are considerably different
from US homes.
Mostly, they are lot smaller.

<snip>
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
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