Discussion:
Visualizing
(too old to reply)
john larkin
2024-09-06 14:53:46 UTC
Permalink
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.

What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.

I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.

Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?

If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Phil Hobbs
2024-09-06 15:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.

But then again, none of us knows what it’s like to be somebody else.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-07 07:04:13 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
Been doing that since the seventies.
All the noise in your head you collect during the day is silenced.
Post by Phil Hobbs
But then again, none of us knows what it’s like to be somebody else.
Oh, I dunno, humming beans are very similar
Even any-malls or was it animals are a lot like us.
john larkin
2024-09-07 14:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-08 06:44:05 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Maybe, dream? I hardly dream at all.. few hours of sleep is normal, 4 hours or so.
Lots of activity here so you _will_ be woken up.
Worked long hours for many years (in broadcasting from early morning to end transmission at night),
travel home, go to sleep, wake up, back to work...
We had a schedule 2 days up 1 day off.
basically it was: for every night you worked you gained half a free day,
well in the sixties and seventies, no idea what they do now.
Some of you earth creatures sleep for month at the time, like those 4 legged white polar earthlings..
john larkin
2024-09-08 16:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Maybe, dream? I hardly dream at all.. few hours of sleep is normal, 4 hours or so.
Yikes. 9 or 10 for me. When I was younger, I'd sleep for 12.

I don't dream much that I know of, and the rare dream is just a bit of
everyday life. My wife has nightmares.

I do solve problems and design stuff while I sleep, and wake up
briefly to take notes.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Lots of activity here so you _will_ be woken up.
Worked long hours for many years (in broadcasting from early morning to end transmission at night),
travel home, go to sleep, wake up, back to work...
We had a schedule 2 days up 1 day off.
basically it was: for every night you worked you gained half a free day,
well in the sixties and seventies, no idea what they do now.
Some of you earth creatures sleep for month at the time, like those 4 legged white polar earthlings..
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-09 06:02:55 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:39:49 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Maybe, dream? I hardly dream at all.. few hours of sleep is normal, 4 hours or so.
Yikes. 9 or 10 for me. When I was younger, I'd sleep for 12.
I don't dream much that I know of, and the rare dream is just a bit of
everyday life. My wife has nightmares.
I do solve problems and design stuff while I sleep, and wake up
briefly to take notes.
Do not even have a pen near to my bed :-)
As to 'visualizing' sound,
I remember you talking about alligator sounds messing with some measurements
now imagine (visualize) a very young alligator making a more high pitched sound...
There is music! rhythmhythm counts too.

Visualizing... you are in the garden, big disc like thing descends next to you on the grass
sort of a door opens, clever looking creature steps out,
says "are you John Larkin?" you acknowledge, creature asks for a Ge PNP transistor to fix his disc ..
you have none, wants to help fix his spacecraft, creature shows his electronic box
with all sorts of stuff in it, little blobs covering little chips
funny connectors, joystick for steering his disc and a picture of his Ohm planet...
you design a replacement circuit for the GE PNP ... solder it in place,
creature is grateful and gives you a little box , goes back in the disc and warps away
You open the box and see
Russian doll Matroesjka ?

After posting about China wanting to do a Mars return here,
now ELon wants to do a manned Mars mission before 2028 I just did read.
It is all over the net:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Elon-Musk-pegs-the-first-human-flight-to-Mars-for-2028-with-a-colony-to-follow-in-20-years.885865.0.html
john larkin
2024-09-09 15:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:39:49 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Maybe, dream? I hardly dream at all.. few hours of sleep is normal, 4 hours or so.
Yikes. 9 or 10 for me. When I was younger, I'd sleep for 12.
I don't dream much that I know of, and the rare dream is just a bit of
everyday life. My wife has nightmares.
I do solve problems and design stuff while I sleep, and wake up
briefly to take notes.
Do not even have a pen near to my bed :-)
As to 'visualizing' sound,
I remember you talking about alligator sounds messing with some measurements
now imagine (visualize) a very young alligator making a more high pitched sound...
There is music! rhythmhythm counts too.
I designed an acoustic monitoring system for NASA, for measuring sound
levels around their Mississippi Test Facility, where they tested the
moon rocket engines. It was claimed that my electronics was
oscillating at low frerquencies. After some research, it was
determined to be subsonic mating calls of bull alligators, which may
have been previously unknown.

We used a temperature-controlled GR electret microphone, new
technology at the time. I dumped it into a jfet follower with no gate
resistor, which was controversial.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Visualizing... you are in the garden, big disc like thing descends next to you on the grass
sort of a door opens, clever looking creature steps out,
says "are you John Larkin?" you acknowledge, creature asks for a Ge PNP transistor to fix his disc ..
you have none, wants to help fix his spacecraft, creature shows his electronic box
with all sorts of stuff in it, little blobs covering little chips
funny connectors, joystick for steering his disc and a picture of his Ohm planet...
you design a replacement circuit for the GE PNP ... solder it in place,
creature is grateful and gives you a little box , goes back in the disc and warps away
You open the box and see
Russian doll Matroesjka ?
After posting about China wanting to do a Mars return here,
now ELon wants to do a manned Mars mission before 2028 I just did read.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Elon-Musk-pegs-the-first-human-flight-to-Mars-for-2028-with-a-colony-to-follow-in-20-years.885865.0.html
Cursitor Doom
2024-09-10 19:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:39:49 -0700) it happened john larkin
<jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john
larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author.
It was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd
had with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and
asked him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone,
could close their eyes and *see* something they were thinking
about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a
mental visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate
with a beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see
it? From the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The
colors? Imagine it slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and
people who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
I never had that.
I do 2 hours of meditation a day.
But you could sleep for those two hours!
Maybe, dream? I hardly dream at all.. few hours of sleep is normal, 4 hours or so.
Yikes. 9 or 10 for me. When I was younger, I'd sleep for 12.
I don't dream much that I know of, and the rare dream is just a bit of
everyday life. My wife has nightmares.
I do solve problems and design stuff while I sleep, and wake up briefly
to take notes.
Do not even have a pen near to my bed :-)
As to 'visualizing' sound,
I remember you talking about alligator sounds messing with some
measurements now imagine (visualize) a very young alligator making a
more high pitched sound...
There is music! rhythmhythm counts too.
Visualizing... you are in the garden, big disc like thing descends next
to you on the grass sort of a door opens, clever looking creature steps
out,
says "are you John Larkin?" you acknowledge, creature asks for a Ge PNP
transistor to fix his disc ..
you have none, wants to help fix his spacecraft, creature shows his
electronic box with all sorts of stuff in it, little blobs covering
little chips funny connectors, joystick for steering his disc and a
picture of his Ohm planet...
you design a replacement circuit for the GE PNP ... solder it in place,
creature is grateful and gives you a little box , goes back in the disc
and warps away You open the box and see
Russian doll Matroesjka ?
After posting about China wanting to do a Mars return here,
now ELon wants to do a manned Mars mission before 2028 I just did read.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Elon-Musk-pegs-the-first-human-flight-to-
Mars-for-2028-with-a-colony-to-follow-in-20-years.885865.0.html

Elon Musk is the Henry Ford of his day, Jan. A true pioneer. The fact that
his business managed to survive all those catastrophic car fires whilst
the occupants were locked inside by the car's brain testifies to that
achievement.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-11 02:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cursitor Doom
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:39:49 -0700) it happened john larkin
<jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:39:46 -0700) it happened john
larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:08:34 -0000 (UTC)) it happened
<snip>
Post by Cursitor Doom
Elon Musk is the Henry Ford of his day, Jan. A true pioneer. The fact that
his business managed to survive all those catastrophic car fires whilst
the occupants were locked inside by the car's brain testifies to that
achievement.
Henry Ford subsidised Adolf Hitler at a critical point early in Hitler's
political career - Henry Ford was just as anti-semitic as Hitler, and
approved of Adolf Hitler's insane rants on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/06/technology/elon-musk-donald-trump-influence.html

Are we seeing history repeat itself?
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Martin Brown
2024-09-07 15:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
There is also visual recall of something you have seen which is slightly
different. Eidetic memory is the most extreme form.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
I have always assumed that most people can do it to some extent. The
next level up is being able to look at something (or imagine it) and
then carve it or construct one in 3D. Very few people can do that.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
Using visual memory is one way to beat a classic Alzheimer's test by
imagining an apple, balanced on a ball sat on a chair. It doesn't seem
to suffer the same degradation as normal short term abstract memory.
Post by Phil Hobbs
But then again, none of us knows what it’s like to be somebody else.
Indeed. The people who I admire the most are composers who can image
roughly what an entire orchestra will sound like playing their newly
written score. That takes an incredible amount of aural imagining.

We also have no way of knowing if what I experience for red colour is
the same as what you see for red. Some colour blind people really do see
the world differently (most common red-green colour blindness). But the
ones with slightly extended near IR vision through 4 types of cones had
advantages in warfare since they can distinguish growing vegetation from
cut and dying vegetation that has been used for camouflage.
--
Martin Brown
john larkin
2024-09-07 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 16:34:22 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
There is also visual recall of something you have seen which is slightly
different. Eidetic memory is the most extreme form.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
I have always assumed that most people can do it to some extent. The
next level up is being able to look at something (or imagine it) and
then carve it or construct one in 3D. Very few people can do that.
Post by Phil Hobbs
Or people who have a dialogue going on in their heads all the time.
Apparently that’s most people.
Using visual memory is one way to beat a classic Alzheimer's test by
imagining an apple, balanced on a ball sat on a chair. It doesn't seem
to suffer the same degradation as normal short term abstract memory.
Post by Phil Hobbs
But then again, none of us knows what it’s like to be somebody else.
Indeed. The people who I admire the most are composers who can image
roughly what an entire orchestra will sound like playing their newly
written score. That takes an incredible amount of aural imagining.
We also have no way of knowing if what I experience for red colour is
the same as what you see for red. Some colour blind people really do see
the world differently (most common red-green colour blindness). But the
ones with slightly extended near IR vision through 4 types of cones had
advantages in warfare since they can distinguish growing vegetation from
cut and dying vegetation that has been used for camouflage.
I suppose that being nearsighted has social-evolutionary advantages.
Some people shoot arrows, some people make arrows.
Martin Brown
2024-09-07 17:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I suppose that being nearsighted has social-evolutionary advantages.
Some people shoot arrows, some people make arrows.
Having extreme visual acuity was highly prized back in the days before
there were optical aids. Roman centurions had an eye test for lookouts
based on splitting the close double epsilon Lyra (which is at the limit
3' arc of the human eye). I could do it when I was younger.

A very small number of children and young adults can see the Galilean
moons of Jupiter at greatest extension from the planet (a feat that most
people need a telescope or binoculars for hence Galileo's discovery).
Seeing them against the planet's glare requires both good optical figure
lens and very clear fluid gel in the eyeball.

Splitting Alcor & Mizar in the plough is easy by comparison (anyone with
20/20 vision should be able to do that). Ancients used it that way too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizar_and_Alcor
--
Martin Brown
Jeroen Belleman
2024-09-07 21:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by john larkin
I suppose that being nearsighted has social-evolutionary advantages.
Some people shoot arrows, some people make arrows.
Having extreme visual acuity was highly prized back in the days before
there were optical aids. Roman centurions had an eye test for lookouts
based on splitting the close double epsilon Lyra (which is at the limit
3' arc of the human eye). I could do it when I was younger.
A very small number of children and young adults can see the Galilean
moons of Jupiter at greatest extension from the planet (a feat that most
people need a telescope or binoculars for hence Galileo's discovery).
Seeing them against the planet's glare requires both good optical figure
lens and very clear fluid gel in the eyeball.
Splitting Alcor & Mizar in the plough is easy by comparison (anyone with
20/20 vision should be able to do that). Ancients used it that way too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizar_and_Alcor
I was surprised when my 3-year old son described venus as a 'little
moon'. To my unaided eyes, it was just an unusually bright pinpoint.

Jeroen Belleman
Don Y
2024-09-07 17:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
There is also visual recall of something you have seen which is slightly
different. Eidetic memory is the most extreme form.
Watch an (good?) artist mixing a specific color of paint. They
"know" what the color needs to be (and how to tint what they
have already mixed to get to that point).

*Assuming* you know how to mix secondary/tertiary colors, trying
to mix an *arbitrary* color is REALLY challenging. Consider
needing to mix *more* of a color that you have previously mixed
(wet paint and dry paint "look" different) without "lap lines".
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 15:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
Yes I can see the fruit fly around the room if I want.
Not sure where the fly went.
The human imagination is not bounded by reality.
Post by john larkin
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Joe Gwinn
2024-09-06 15:27:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.

Joe Gwinn
john larkin
2024-09-06 15:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.

There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.

I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.

That would suggest a good interview question.

I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.

I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Wanderer
2024-09-06 06:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney. I don't think I really visualize things. I don't see things floating
in front of me. I feel it. Sort of like closing your eyes and feeling an object in
your hand. I know it from all angles, its insides and outsides, its texture,
its solidity, its weight... It's kind of the sculptor versus the painter but
that is the information a good painter is getting across in his painting. I don't
have problems with 3D puzzles. In high school, I had study class with the teacher
who taught remedial students. One day there were all these 3D puzzles out that
they used to test these kids cognitive ability. I walked over and solved them all
in a couple of minutes. I didn't realize I had done anything special. I thought
I just played with the toys. Until I turned around and saw the teacher staring at
me. A couple of them no one had been able to solve.
Don Y
2024-09-06 18:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Baloney. I don't think I really visualize things. I don't see things floating
in front of me.
If asked to visualize your spouse/offspring's faces, don't you conjure an
image? What about thinking about the ocean? Mountains? Is there nothing
*visual* that comes to mind?

If someone mention's the dentist's *drill*, can you not hear the high pitched
whine? Smell the collagen being ground up?
Post by Wanderer
I feel it. Sort of like closing your eyes and feeling an object in
your hand. I know it from all angles, its insides and outsides, its texture,
its solidity, its weight... It's kind of the sculptor versus the painter but
that is the information a good painter is getting across in his painting. I don't
have problems with 3D puzzles. In high school, I had study class with the teacher
who taught remedial students. One day there were all these 3D puzzles out that
they used to test these kids cognitive ability. I walked over and solved them all
in a couple of minutes. I didn't realize I had done anything special. I thought
I just played with the toys. Until I turned around and saw the teacher staring at
me. A couple of them no one had been able to solve.
This was a common type of "IQ" test when I was young. A 2D representation
of 3D objects and you had to pick which of the offered choices represented the
"unseen side". You needed a sort of intuition to know the correct rendering
as exploring each option systematically would take too much time (tests
were always time-limited)

It's the same sort of skill that lets folks assemble items purchased in
an unassembled form.

Or, play chess.

For multithreaded and object-oriented software, it's an essential skill
as the interactions are more 3+ dimensional than, for example, simple
procedural programming languages.
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 18:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney. I don't think I really visualize things. I don't see things floating
in front of me.
I think the issue there is what it means to visualize.
I can temporarily replace the image of this computer screen with an image of an apple on a plate.
I can even make the apple lift off the plate if I want.
Obviously none of this is happening in front of me.
There has been no change in what's in front of me and what's in front of me is still being processed (you might say unconsciously).
I know this because I know I can safely drive a car while imagining floating apples.
Post by Wanderer
I feel it. Sort of like closing your eyes and feeling an object in
your hand. I know it from all angles, its insides and outsides, its texture,
its solidity, its weight... It's kind of the sculptor versus the painter but
that is the information a good painter is getting across in his painting. I don't
have problems with 3D puzzles. In high school, I had study class with the teacher
who taught remedial students. One day there were all these 3D puzzles out that
they used to test these kids cognitive ability. I walked over and solved them all
in a couple of minutes. I didn't realize I had done anything special. I thought
I just played with the toys. Until I turned around and saw the teacher staring at
me. A couple of them no one had been able to solve.
Don Y
2024-09-06 19:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
I think the issue there is what it means to visualize.
I can temporarily replace the image of this computer screen with an image of an apple on a plate.
I can even make the apple lift off the plate if I want.
Obviously none of this is happening in front of me.
There has been no change in what's in front of me and what's in front of me is still being processed (you might say unconsciously).
I know this because I know I can safely drive a car while imagining floating apples.
I think that is too literal an interpretation.

Or, one should replace "visualize" with "imagine" as a more generic term
as it isn't as literally tied to a visual representation.

One can *imagine* what it's like to be in the elevator when someone *farts*!
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 19:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
I think the issue there is what it means to visualize.
I can temporarily replace the image of this computer screen with an image of an apple on a plate.
I can even make the apple lift off the plate if I want.
Obviously none of this is happening in front of me.
There has been no change in what's in front of me and what's in front of me is still being processed (you might say
unconsciously).
I know this because I know I can safely drive a car while imagining floating apples.
I think that is too literal an interpretation.
Or, one should replace "visualize" with "imagine" as a more generic term
as it isn't as literally tied to a visual representation.
One can *imagine* what it's like to be in the elevator when someone *farts*!
So perhaps some people have no imagination.

I find it hard to believe that that can be literally true but maybe it can for some people.
Don Y
2024-09-06 19:17:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
I think the issue there is what it means to visualize.
I can temporarily replace the image of this computer screen with an image of an apple on a plate.
I can even make the apple lift off the plate if I want.
Obviously none of this is happening in front of me.
There has been no change in what's in front of me and what's in front of me is still being processed (you might say
unconsciously).
I know this because I know I can safely drive a car while imagining floating apples.
I think that is too literal an interpretation.
Or, one should replace "visualize" with "imagine" as a more generic term
as it isn't as literally tied to a visual representation.
One can *imagine* what it's like to be in the elevator when someone *farts*!
So perhaps some people have no imagination.
I find it hard to believe that that can be literally true but maybe it can for some people.
I suspect one can't really *learn* without an imagination.
You need to be able to extrapolate exemplars to more general
cases in order to know how to deal with situations that
you've not previously encountered.

"I've never *opened* a can of evaporated milk before!"

"It's just like a can of corn except the contents differ!"

Imagine encountering a pull tab on a can of soda for the
first time. "Gee, what's THIS thing do?" (what the hell
do you THINK it *might* do??!)

Or, the "push-button" tops on a can of Coors...
john larkin
2024-09-06 19:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
I think the issue there is what it means to visualize.
I can temporarily replace the image of this computer screen with an image of an apple on a plate.
I can even make the apple lift off the plate if I want.
Obviously none of this is happening in front of me.
There has been no change in what's in front of me and what's in front of me is still being processed (you might say unconsciously).
I know this because I know I can safely drive a car while imagining floating apples.
I think that is too literal an interpretation.
Or, one should replace "visualize" with "imagine" as a more generic term
as it isn't as literally tied to a visual representation.
It seems that different people do indeed have different abilities to
imagine in different ways, maybe visual images or words or other
senses.

People are very different.
john larkin
2024-09-06 19:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-07 04:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
<snip>
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.

The US military picked up the idea in 1917 to sort the flood of
conscripts they were getting into the kinds of jobs where they'd be most
useful. The average IQ of front-line infantry men ended up at 80.

It was the first large scale application of the idea, but the military
didn't invent or develop it.

https://www.verywellmind.com/history-of-intelligence-testing-2795581

Everybody with any sense understands that the tests are testing a whole
range of very different capabilities, and the single number IQ is a
gross over-simplification. The intellectually lazy don't care.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Ralph Mowery
2024-09-07 14:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
john larkin
2024-09-07 14:50:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.

The freshman washout rate was about 20%.

I was great at math and science, terrible at english, and basically
helpless in French.

I know for a fact that the staff met and fudged grades to retain the
kids with asymmetric talents.

It's tragic to force kids to do things they can't, and tell someone
that they are a failure because that don't understand the symbolism in
Moby Dick, when they could be dynamite engineers or airplane
mechanics.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-07 15:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage. Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
Post by john larkin
I know for a fact that the staff met and fudged grades to retain the
kids with asymmetric talents.
It's tragic to force kids to do things they can't, and tell someone
that they are a failure because that don't understand the symbolism in
Moby Dick, when they could be dynamite engineers or airplane
mechanics.
Actually it is merely stupid to try to force kids to do thing that they
can't.

Good teachers don't work that way - they offer less able kids less
demanding tasks, that they can manage, and can frequently get them quite
a long way by progressively making the tasks more demanding as the kids
get more competent.

I doubt if anybody has been locked out of a career in a practical
subject because they couldn't understand the symbolism in Moby
Dick, but then again it never featured in any class in any school I went
to. I have read the book, but wasn't all that impressed.

Thomas Love Peacock is more to my taste.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
john larkin
2024-09-07 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage.
?????
Post by Bill Sloman
Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
I design electronics and sell it. Is that superficial? What do you do?

NIF just discovered a new fusion trick, inertial confinement in a
diamond sphere. Maybe we helped.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-08 06:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage.
?????
Post by Bill Sloman
Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
I design electronics and sell it. Is that superficial?
Your contributions to that aren't remotely fundamental.
Post by john larkin
What do you do?
Nothing that you could make any sense of.
Post by john larkin
NIF just discovered a new fusion trick, inertial confinement in a
diamond sphere. Maybe we helped.
The standard NIF implosion capsule is already extremely expensive and
very small. Making it spherical and out of diamond wouldn't make it any
more expensive.

You contribution to that will have been exactly zero. This suggests that
you may be barking up the wrong tree,

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
john larkin
2024-09-08 16:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage.
?????
Post by Bill Sloman
Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
I design electronics and sell it. Is that superficial?
Your contributions to that aren't remotely fundamental.
Post by john larkin
What do you do?
Nothing that you could make any sense of.
Try me.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
NIF just discovered a new fusion trick, inertial confinement in a
diamond sphere. Maybe we helped.
The standard NIF implosion capsule is already extremely expensive and
very small. Making it spherical and out of diamond wouldn't make it any
more expensive.
You contribution to that will have been exactly zero. This suggests that
you may be barking up the wrong tree,
https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
Our second-generation modulators greatly improve the beam modulation
precision and s/n, which turns out to be valuable.

The NIF folks are great to work with. They are collegial and fun and
have interesting physics problems but they aren't very good at
designing electronics. Ideal customers.

It's weird how some very intelligent scientists are not good at
designing electronics. Maybe because electronic design is not a
science.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-09 04:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage.
?????
Post by Bill Sloman
Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
I design electronics and sell it. Is that superficial?
Your contributions to that aren't remotely fundamental.
Post by john larkin
What do you do?
Nothing that you could make any sense of.
Try me.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
NIF just discovered a new fusion trick, inertial confinement in a
diamond sphere. Maybe we helped.
The standard NIF implosion capsule is already extremely expensive and
very small. Making it spherical and out of diamond wouldn't make it any
more expensive.
You contribution to that will have been exactly zero. This suggests that
you may be barking up the wrong tree,
https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
Our second-generation modulators greatly improve the beam modulation
precision and s/n, which turns out to be valuable.
So the first generation was perfectly useless?
Post by john larkin
The NIF folks are great to work with. They are collegial and fun and
have interesting physics problems but they aren't very good at
designing electronics. Ideal customers.
It's weird how some very intelligent scientists are not good at
designing electronics. Maybe because electronic design is not a
science.
There's nothing weird about it at all. Science involves getting deeply
involved in a particular problem. Designing electronics is a different
kind of problem, and they haven't put in the time to learn what has been
done with electronics in the past, or the new components that make it
possible to do better now.

When I ended up writing a guide to which op amp to use at Cambridge
Instruments in 1988 I listed 159 different devices, all of which I'd at
least thought about using practical projects.

There nothing to stop them acquiring the knowledge, except the time it
takes.

When I was working at Nijmegen University we got a query from somebody
having trouble with the LT1028 (which is a great op amp, but with a
slightly cranky output stage), so I suggested that they try the AD797
which has got ion-implanted PNP transistors in its output stage, and is
correspondingly more expensive and better behaved. It worked for them.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
john larkin
2024-09-09 05:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by Wanderer
Post by john larkin
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
Baloney.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights.
He happens to be right. The idea was invented in France in 1904 and used
to sort educationally sub-normal kids so that they got the kid of
educational help that they needed and could get some advantage out of.
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in. I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English. I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
I went to one of the first fw "magnet" schools in the USA, with IQ and
achievment tests to get in and they required minimum grades (72
average) to stay in.
The freshman washout rate was about 20%.
I was great at math and science, terrible at English, and basically
helpless in French.
But you can make yourself understood here, which doesn't entirely work
to your advantage.
?????
Post by Bill Sloman
Your English expression is fine, but what you have to
express is somehwat superficial.
I design electronics and sell it. Is that superficial?
Your contributions to that aren't remotely fundamental.
Post by john larkin
What do you do?
Nothing that you could make any sense of.
Try me.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
NIF just discovered a new fusion trick, inertial confinement in a
diamond sphere. Maybe we helped.
The standard NIF implosion capsule is already extremely expensive and
very small. Making it spherical and out of diamond wouldn't make it any
more expensive.
You contribution to that will have been exactly zero. This suggests that
you may be barking up the wrong tree,
https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
Our second-generation modulators greatly improve the beam modulation
precision and s/n, which turns out to be valuable.
So the first generation was perfectly useless?
Of course not; we got fusion. But the kind of Gbit DACs that are
available how were not available 25 years ago. At that time, there
weren't any decent fast DACs, so we had to, basically, multiplex 120
slow dacs at a 4 GHz rate.

We knew that suitable DACs were just a few years away.

I did learn about Gibbs Ears and Gaussian math and cool stuff.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-09 07:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 10:03:51 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<snip>
Post by john larkin
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by john larkin
Our second-generation modulators greatly improve the beam modulation
precision and s/n, which turns out to be valuable.
So the first generation was perfectly useless?
Of course not; we got fusion. But the kind of Gbit DACs that are
available how were not available 25 years ago. At that time, there
weren't any decent fast DACs, so we had to, basically, multiplex 120
slow dacs at a 4 GHz rate.
We knew that suitable DACs were just a few years away.
And you didn't have enough sense to find an approach that didn't need them.
Post by john larkin
I did learn about Gibbs Ears and Gaussian math and cool stuff.
If you mean Gibbs oscillations, I found about them around 1978 when a
bat researcher I happened to know needed a high-frequency random noise
generator to interfere with her bat's echo-location.

Like you, I copied a device from the Hewlett-Packard Journal. Sadly,
they'd left out the bit about a applying a Hamming window to the tap
weights on the shift-register-based low pass filter.

I had to knock up another set of 30-odd weighing resistors (which didn't
take all that long).

I note that you have snipped most of my post without marking the snip.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Ralph Mowery
2024-09-07 16:08:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, john larkin
says...
Post by john larkin
I was great at math and science, terrible at english, and basically
helpless in French.
I know for a fact that the staff met and fudged grades to retain the
kids with asymmetric talents.
It's tragic to force kids to do things they can't, and tell someone
that they are a failure because that don't understand the symbolism in
Moby Dick, when they could be dynamite engineers or airplane
mechanics.
You sound like me. I tried French and Spanish and just barely got by.

In jr high I wanted to play the drums but there were 4 others that had
some previous training. I then mentioned another instrument but could
not play it due to having braces and could no blow correctly. I was
forced to take up an instrument for 2 ears that I really hated but got
by. Gave it up in high school as we did not have to take band or
chorus.
The band was more interested in putting on a good show instead of
actually teaching.

I went to a tech school and did well.We had an english course or two but
it was to teach technical writing and public speaking no reading of
novels that I had no interest in.
john larkin
2024-09-07 16:21:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 12:08:36 -0400, Ralph Mowery
Post by Ralph Mowery
says...
Post by john larkin
I was great at math and science, terrible at english, and basically
helpless in French.
I know for a fact that the staff met and fudged grades to retain the
kids with asymmetric talents.
It's tragic to force kids to do things they can't, and tell someone
that they are a failure because that don't understand the symbolism in
Moby Dick, when they could be dynamite engineers or airplane
mechanics.
You sound like me. I tried French and Spanish and just barely got by.
In jr high I wanted to play the drums but there were 4 others that had
some previous training. I then mentioned another instrument but could
not play it due to having braces and could no blow correctly. I was
forced to take up an instrument for 2 ears that I really hated but got
by. Gave it up in high school as we did not have to take band or
chorus.
The band was more interested in putting on a good show instead of
actually teaching.
I went to a tech school and did well.We had an english course or two but
it was to teach technical writing and public speaking no reading of
novels that I had no interest in.
I met a guy on this forum, who teaches a 2-year course in industrial
automation at Sierra Collage. We dropped in on a class at the campus
in Truckee. The course is very cool and very hands-on and his graduate
placement rate is 100%. His grads run enormous factories.
Don Y
2024-09-07 17:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Mowery
You sound like me. I tried French and Spanish and just barely got by.
Foreign languages (French, Spanish, Latin) were optional at the jr/sr high
school levels, for us. No need to take any to graduate -- though strongly
suggested if you were "college bound".
Post by Ralph Mowery
In jr high I wanted to play the drums but there were 4 others that had
some previous training. I then mentioned another instrument but could
not play it due to having braces and could no blow correctly. I was
forced to take up an instrument for 2 ears that I really hated but got
No one was turned away from "band" just like no one would be turned
away from "shop", calculus, etc. Of course, "band" places more
pressure on the student because they are performing "publicly";
you can hide your calculus grades from the others in your class
but your skill at <instrument> would be readily apparent to everyone
else in the band.

We had a smaller "jazz ensemble" that recruited from the band for
more upscale material/performances.
Post by Ralph Mowery
by. Gave it up in high school as we did not have to take band or
chorus.
The band was more interested in putting on a good show instead of
actually teaching.
If the players can't read music and keep time, they won't put on
a good show, regardless. So, teaching is essential, even if not
stressed.

And, you'd previously had "music" classes (grade school) so it's not
like the staff is something you've not encountered before! OTOH, you
aren't going to get *individualized* instruction any more than you
would get "tutored" on your math class!
Post by Ralph Mowery
I went to a tech school and did well.We had an english course or two but
it was to teach technical writing and public speaking no reading of
novels that I had no interest in.
Growing up in New England, we had a strong emphasis on American History and
American Literature. I was amused to find people in college who were
ignorant of much of this (after making excuses for the "foreigners")
Don Y
2024-09-07 17:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Mowery
I wish that school when I went had a way to educate children in what
they were interested in.
And, what do you do about the kids who aren't *interested* in "school"?
The role of the (public) school system is to provide a basic education
to ALL students so they can be productive members of society. To
make an attempt at ensuring that they all have some "basic" understanding
of the subjects that society considers important.

In years past, this was a reasonably broad suite that also included
things like art and music. These seem to be among the first to go
when "cuts" are proposed.
Post by Ralph Mowery
I was great in math and science but could not
remember the people's named or dates in history and did very poor in
English.
I was good in math and science -- and, according to the teachers, *english*
as well (much to my dismay!).

History? Blech. Too much rote memorization. OTOH, in college, we were
required to take 8 "humanities" courses (one per semester, on average)
and I chose American History as one of my electives - thinking I had
already had two o*years* of this in jr&sr high school. The teacher
was an economist and taught everything with an emphasis on the economic
factors at play -- which was far more interesting than just remembering
"stories"!
Post by Ralph Mowery
I did go to two sumers of what was called enrichment studies
where we did not get graded but was exposed to many things that came in
hand in later life such as speed reading and general information about
other countries and some science. I really enjoyed those two years. The
ones in that program were ones that seemed to be at the top of the
school class.
We had a similar "program" for science and reading. The school system
funded the program (paid for teachers and facilities) but "transportation"
was the student's responsibility. E.g., the reading "class" was held at
a building half a mile distant from the science "class". So, you spent your
lunch hour walking from one to the other.

There were other "remedial" classes ("summer school") that addressed kids
who were lagging in different subjects.

Much of the quality of an education (public or otherwise) can be traced to
the level of funding and commitment (of parents and educators). My teachers
recognized that I was easily bored by the material that challenged the rest
of the class so would funnel other materials to me for "independent study".
Then, expect me to make presentations to the class about what I had learned.
(I remember one year where I spent a day each week -- in "math class" --
presenting bits of the Trachenberg system to my fellow classmates. Gave
a short course in "optics" another year based on what I'd learned from the
bag of lenses and book given to me by my science teacher.)

I built an interactive "football" game as a special project, one year,
using "analog computers" and "logic boxes" (each a small suitcase that
the student could take home during the school year for "homework").
It occupied a 4'x8' sheet of plywood and was more interesting that it
worked, at all, than it's actual technological basis (lots of analog
meters scattered around the board to tell you the position on the
field, "down", yards gained/lost on that play, "time" remaining, etc.)

The school system paid for me to attend another facility in a remote
part of the state (<tmsc.org> now more of a "charter school" than a
"gifted program") where I was exposed to other fields of science that
were beyond the capabilities of the public schools. E.g., I started
using computers 6 or 7 years before they *had* any in our school system)

We had a "math team" that competed with other schools around the state,
after school -- relying on one of our teachers for transportation
("VW microbus with shovels and rakes and implements of destruction")

Out-of-state "field trips" were relatively common -- NYC, Washington DC,
Boston, etc. -- as they were 2-6 hour drives (and the school system
would rent the *commercial* bus for our transportation -- sunrise to
after sunset!)

It's all "just money"... :-/

Jr&Sr high school sorted students into "college prep" and "business"
curriculae. And, as there are only a fixed number of hours in a school
day, this meant you didn't take some classes in order to accommodate
others. E.g., I never had time for "auto shop" in high school -- but
managed to fit wood shop, metal shop and drafting into jr high. So,
students had *some* flexibility in what they could take (though 4 years
of english and 4 years of phys ed were required to graduate high school;
I had to bring proof that I'd taken a year's worth -- 2 semesters -- of
each back from my freshman year at college in order to get my high
school diploma... utter nonsense!)
wmartin
2024-09-06 19:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
The Air Force recruiting people had some sort of "pattern test" in
addition to other stuff, back in 1960-something. At least for people
wanting to go into electronics school.
john larkin
2024-09-06 19:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmartin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
The Air Force recruiting people had some sort of "pattern test" in
addition to other stuff, back in 1960-something. At least for people
wanting to go into electronics school.
Or fly airplanes.
Joe Gwinn
2024-09-06 23:21:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.

There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.

As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.

My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>

Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.

Joe Gwinn
Don Y
2024-09-07 01:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
That's true of most "mechanisms".

I brought SWMBO's vehicle back to the dealer, shortly after purchase.
I told them the rear left shock was bad.

Got the car back with an explanation that the spare *tire* wasn't
adequately secured and THAT was the source of the noise.

Don't argue with the young girl. Drive home. REMOVE spare tire from
car. Grab a short length of 2x4 and return to dealership. Ask service
manager to take a ride with me. Show him the empty tire well before
setting out.

Down side street. Stop. Place 2x4 in roadway. Ride over it so only
the RIGHT wheels experience the "bump". Repeat for left side.
"Oh, I see what you mean. I'll have the techs look into it.

Some months later, same scenario: the latch for the rear seat on
the driver's side needs to be adjusted. Return to pick up car
and am told "the license plate frame was loose and that's what
was rattling".

"Hop in car, please. Hear that rattle? AFTER you have *fixed* it?"
Unlatch the driver's side seat and fold it down. "Notice rattle is
now gone -- and I never exited the vehicle to fiddle with the license
plate frame??"

Neighbor complaining of spending a small fortune on front end repairs
for his car. "It's making a funny noise" (Q: why are noises "funny"?)
Take a ride. Yup. "Your tie rod (or maybe sway bar) is hitting the
'frame'" Simple *missing* rubber bumper was the fix.

Of course, I will leave it to *him* to realize that the folks he
was having work on the car were giving him a royal f*cking!

When I was doing tabletting, you could look at a tablet and determine
the state of the tooling and current settings from the mechanical
artifacts that would manifest in its form. But, you needed to make
a *machine* to do this because disinterested operators would never
take/invest the time to examine their "product". (It's just a job)
john larkin
2024-09-07 15:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
Joe Gwinn
Some people can "see" equations flow. Probably Phil can.

I can visualize a circuit and see the voltages and the current flowing
around, but that falls apart at any great complexity, and I can
forget, so it helps to scribble the ideas in a bedside notebook.

Some look great in the morning and some really don't.

Some ideas happen in the shower so they are harder to scribble down. I
recall that someone once sold a waterproof sketch kit or whiteboard or
something.
Joe Gwinn
2024-09-07 18:18:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:38:27 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
Joe Gwinn
Some people can "see" equations flow. Probably Phil can.
I can visualize a circuit and see the voltages and the current flowing
around, but that falls apart at any great complexity, and I can
forget, so it helps to scribble the ideas in a bedside notebook.
Some look great in the morning and some really don't.
Some ideas happen in the shower so they are harder to scribble down. I
recall that someone once sold a waterproof sketch kit or whiteboard or
something.
Space Pen and waterproof surveyor's field notebook?

.<https://www.kokuyostore.com/en_US/field-notebook-waterproof-type/SE-Y11.html>

Waterproof markers are also used. Many will write underwater.

Joe Gwinn
Phil Hobbs
2024-09-07 23:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:38:27 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
Joe Gwinn
Some people can "see" equations flow. Probably Phil can.
I can visualize a circuit and see the voltages and the current flowing
around, but that falls apart at any great complexity, and I can
forget, so it helps to scribble the ideas in a bedside notebook.
Some look great in the morning and some really don't.
Some ideas happen in the shower so they are harder to scribble down. I
recall that someone once sold a waterproof sketch kit or whiteboard or
something.
Space Pen and waterproof surveyor's field notebook?
.<https://www.kokuyostore.com/en_US/field-notebook-waterproof-type/SE-Y11.html>
Waterproof markers are also used. Many will write underwater.
Joe Gwinn
Or just write on the tiles with a nice black grease pencil. (Staying
married afterwards is left as an exercise for the reader.) ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
Phil Hobbs
2024-09-07 22:50:40 UTC
Permalink
d
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
So can I, as long as it's rod knock or a hard miss. ;)

Telling a plugged cat from clogged injectors from retarded timing, not
so much.

I've taken two engines apart to varying degrees. One was a complete
rebuild (oversize pistons, align bore, half-race cam) of a 1973 Fiat.(*)

The other one was a 1978 Triumph that needed a head gasket. It was a
lot easier back when you could open the hood and see at least a bit of
pavement.
Post by Joe Gwinn
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
And the Navier-Stokes equations are for incompressible flow, which is
only the first-order model for aeronautics. (Jet engines need
thermodynamics, which N-S doesn't do.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) No, it wasn't the good one, i.e. the 124 Spyder--it was a 1100 cc
Model 128 sedan. Yes, that's completely stupid, but hey, I was 18, so
cut me some slack. Nowadays my stupidity comes out in far more
sophisticated forms. ;)
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
john larkin
2024-09-08 00:01:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:50:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
d
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
So can I, as long as it's rod knock or a hard miss. ;)
Telling a plugged cat from clogged injectors from retarded timing, not
so much.
I've taken two engines apart to varying degrees. One was a complete
rebuild (oversize pistons, align bore, half-race cam) of a 1973 Fiat.(*)
The other one was a 1978 Triumph that needed a head gasket. It was a
lot easier back when you could open the hood and see at least a bit of
pavement.
Post by Joe Gwinn
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
And the Navier-Stokes equations are for incompressible flow, which is
only the first-order model for aeronautics. (Jet engines need
thermodynamics, which N-S doesn't do.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(*) No, it wasn't the good one, i.e. the 124 Spyder--it was a 1100 cc
Model 128 sedan. Yes, that's completely stupid, but hey, I was 18, so
cut me some slack. Nowadays my stupidity comes out in far more
sophisticated forms. ;)
You want stupid? I had an Austin-Healy Sprite, it got crushed between
two giant American uglies, so I took the insurance money and bought a
new MG Midget.

Here is is now:

https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mg-3/

https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mgdoor/
Phil Hobbs
2024-09-08 00:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:50:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
d
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
So can I, as long as it's rod knock or a hard miss. ;)
Telling a plugged cat from clogged injectors from retarded timing, not
so much.
I've taken two engines apart to varying degrees. One was a complete
rebuild (oversize pistons, align bore, half-race cam) of a 1973 Fiat.(*)
The other one was a 1978 Triumph that needed a head gasket. It was a
lot easier back when you could open the hood and see at least a bit of
pavement.
Post by Joe Gwinn
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
And the Navier-Stokes equations are for incompressible flow, which is
only the first-order model for aeronautics. (Jet engines need
thermodynamics, which N-S doesn't do.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(*) No, it wasn't the good one, i.e. the 124 Spyder--it was a 1100 cc
Model 128 sedan. Yes, that's completely stupid, but hey, I was 18, so
cut me some slack. Nowadays my stupidity comes out in far more
sophisticated forms. ;)
You want stupid? I had an Austin-Healy Sprite, it got crushed between
two giant American uglies, so I took the insurance money and bought a
new MG Midget.
https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mg-3/
https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mgdoor/
Well, at least you both more or less survived. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
john larkin
2024-09-08 03:44:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 8 Sep 2024 00:09:15 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by john larkin
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:50:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
Post by Phil Hobbs
d
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
It was. Staring in WW1, when there were millions of new recruits to
sort into jobs.
There is another kind of visualization that is very common and quite
useful: Most people who take an internal combustion engine apart and
reassembles it can diagnose mechanical problems from the sound made by
the engine as a vehicle drives past - one can "see" the moving parts
as they are making the noise in that engine. Most auto mechanics can
do this, and so can I.
So can I, as long as it's rod knock or a hard miss. ;)
Telling a plugged cat from clogged injectors from retarded timing, not
so much.
I've taken two engines apart to varying degrees. One was a complete
rebuild (oversize pistons, align bore, half-race cam) of a 1973 Fiat.(*)
The other one was a 1978 Triumph that needed a head gasket. It was a
lot easier back when you could open the hood and see at least a bit of
pavement.
Post by Joe Gwinn
As for the EE who went into History, the usual path for people who
cannot visualize is Mathematics. But even that benefits from
visualization.
My father was a degreed aeronautical engineer. But he really didn't
visualize things like auto engines and cooling systems at all
specialty was theory, and aeronautical engineering has far more
complex math than EE.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_equations>
Plus lots of classical physics. I never asked him if he could
visualize fluid flow from the math, but I bet he could.
And the Navier-Stokes equations are for incompressible flow, which is
only the first-order model for aeronautics. (Jet engines need
thermodynamics, which N-S doesn't do.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(*) No, it wasn't the good one, i.e. the 124 Spyder--it was a 1100 cc
Model 128 sedan. Yes, that's completely stupid, but hey, I was 18, so
cut me some slack. Nowadays my stupidity comes out in far more
sophisticated forms. ;)
You want stupid? I had an Austin-Healy Sprite, it got crushed between
two giant American uglies, so I took the insurance money and bought a
new MG Midget.
https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mg-3/
https://adrianruyle.com/3-d-art/art-cars/mgdoor/
Well, at least you both more or less survived. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Oh, the Sprite was a total loss, and my back still hurts a bit now and
then. I was in the passenger seat and my first kid was in my lap and
the car was crushed from behind and there was gasoline all over the
place. But up to then it was a fun thing to drive.

Cars were a lot more dangerous then.
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-07 07:29:56 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
Much later guided missile stuff, space, what not.
My IQ tests were so high it caused a stir..
well for that first job all applicants had to do an IO test, had over 130, got that job,
everybody was bowing for me, wanted to know where I was going, what I was doing etc...
frightening, told them I had to leave and meet somebody.

Anyways, after that mil navy stuff I quit and got a job in broadcasting,
much safer... more interesting equipment too.
Then years later left after they wanted to make me studio boss or something, went on a search for 'truth',
gurus all over the world, including the US

But then I am an alien...
tried all sorts of jobs to stay alive, from picking oranges too []..
I like to learn and use stuff I see in one field in the other fields.
john larkin
2024-09-07 14:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
I used to work on ships, designing control systems and for a while
going out and maintaining them.

The steam plants were especially dangerous. A welded pipe joint might
leak an invisible jet that would cut you in half. The crew would test
a joint by waving a broomstick around it, and see if the end would
be sliced off and fall to the deck.
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-08 07:02:40 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:56:15 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
I used to work on ships, designing control systems and for a while
going out and maintaining them.
The steam plants were especially dangerous. A welded pipe joint might
leak an invisible jet that would cut you in half. The crew would test
a joint by waving a broomstick around it, and see if the end would
be sliced off and fall to the deck.
Sounds bad..
I did not like the intense noise in the machine rooms from the diesel engines,
and the small doors and gangways you had to 'creep' through.
Almost got electrocuted working on a power supply on a heli deck..
We had asked for the power to be turned off so we could change some stuff.
I opened the (big) box and felt that funny tingling on my nose...
to my boss "feels like there still is power"
measured it, sure
he almost fainted...
Guy had turned off the wrong switch..
In the next summer vacation I applied for a job in broadcasting and got it.
Had designed and build my own portable video camera so knew enough :-)
There were 6 of us hired, We then got 6 month training in all things broadcast related... payed for.
followed by an exam, 2 dropped out (you have to have a feel for that stuff).
2 more dropped out later...
john larkin
2024-09-08 16:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:56:15 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
I used to work on ships, designing control systems and for a while
going out and maintaining them.
The steam plants were especially dangerous. A welded pipe joint might
leak an invisible jet that would cut you in half. The crew would test
a joint by waving a broomstick around it, and see if the end would
be sliced off and fall to the deck.
Sounds bad..
I did not like the intense noise in the machine rooms from the diesel engines,
and the small doors and gangways you had to 'creep' through.
The steam plants were deafening too, and we had a giant aux diesel
too. You had to scream directly into someone's ear. People wore
construction-type helmets with ear pads, but I wore my motorcycle
helmet.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Almost got electrocuted working on a power supply on a heli deck..
We had asked for the power to be turned off so we could change some stuff.
I opened the (big) box and felt that funny tingling on my nose...
to my boss "feels like there still is power"
measured it, sure
he almost fainted...
Guy had turned off the wrong switch..
In the next summer vacation I applied for a job in broadcasting and got it.
Had designed and build my own portable video camera so knew enough :-)
There were 6 of us hired, We then got 6 month training in all things broadcast related... payed for.
followed by an exam, 2 dropped out (you have to have a feel for that stuff).
2 more dropped out later...
I was tweaking a trimpot to tune a nonlinear function generator and
got the prop up to 50 RPM, and almost tore the LASH ship off the dock
into the Mississippi river, and probably would have killed someone.
The Chief ran over and shut things down.

I once rode a ship from San Francisco to San Pedro, at maybe $100 per
hour, to diagnose an erratic steam plant. The fix was a quarter turn
on a screw on a terminal strip. That was from the RPM feedback tach.
The constant vibration had loosened a lot of screws.

Doing physical stuff is fun. Typing all day, not so much.
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-09 06:25:15 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:27:13 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:56:15 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
I used to work on ships, designing control systems and for a while
going out and maintaining them.
The steam plants were especially dangerous. A welded pipe joint might
leak an invisible jet that would cut you in half. The crew would test
a joint by waving a broomstick around it, and see if the end would
be sliced off and fall to the deck.
Sounds bad..
I did not like the intense noise in the machine rooms from the diesel engines,
and the small doors and gangways you had to 'creep' through.
The steam plants were deafening too, and we had a giant aux diesel
too. You had to scream directly into someone's ear. People wore
construction-type helmets with ear pads, but I wore my motorcycle
helmet.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Almost got electrocuted working on a power supply on a heli deck..
We had asked for the power to be turned off so we could change some stuff.
I opened the (big) box and felt that funny tingling on my nose...
to my boss "feels like there still is power"
measured it, sure
he almost fainted...
Guy had turned off the wrong switch..
In the next summer vacation I applied for a job in broadcasting and got it.
Had designed and build my own portable video camera so knew enough :-)
There were 6 of us hired, We then got 6 month training in all things broadcast related... payed for.
followed by an exam, 2 dropped out (you have to have a feel for that stuff).
2 more dropped out later...
I was tweaking a trimpot to tune a nonlinear function generator and
got the prop up to 50 RPM, and almost tore the LASH ship off the dock
into the Mississippi river, and probably would have killed someone.
The Chief ran over and shut things down.
I once rode a ship from San Francisco to San Pedro, at maybe $100 per
hour, to diagnose an erratic steam plant. The fix was a quarter turn
on a screw on a terminal strip. That was from the RPM feedback tach.
The constant vibration had loosened a lot of screws.
Doing physical stuff is fun. Typing all day, not so much.
There was a nice program about 'Old man river' on TV few days ago, showing how it was discovered
people looking for the source, the natives and the fights and what it looks like now.
Yesterday I was looking for a nice catamaran for a world tour :-)
For a couple of thousand you have something for the adventurer.
My idea is to put some things like these on top:
https://tesup.com/nl/tesup-verticale-windturbines-voor-woningen
then use electric motors, big battery packs.
Then no matter what direction the wind comes from you always have power and can steer in any direction...
Somebody already did that it seems
And solar panels I already have..
Anyways before the nuking here starts, better sail away...
Bit more south maybe a safer place...
Not the first time I had that sail-away plan, but world tensions increase by thr day now.
john larkin
2024-09-09 18:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:27:13 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:56:15 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There are definitely such people, and I've met them. The example that
springs to mind was a History Teaching Assistant I met in college in
the 1960s. It turned out that he had been an EE Undergrad, and
discovered that he could not visualize the electrons in motion, unlike
his colleagues. This TA was wise enough to know that this was
crippling - he would never be able to compete with those who could
visualize electrons. So he switched to History.
Joe Gwinn
The statistics would be interesting, whether the non-visualization
thing is common or maybe very rare. I'll have to google that some
time.
There is a small fraction of the population that don't like music, for
example. That includes me. Some people absolutely can't remember
faces. I know a guy who can only recognize people by their hair.
I'd expect that among CE/EE graduates, good visualizers would tend to
be more EE and less visualizers more CE. Things vs words.
That would suggest a good interview question.
I was drafted once (never served) and took a test to join the Marine
Corps. One part involved looking at a flat thing with various squares
painted with patterns, and then imagining a box that was folded up
from the flat thing. I guess that visualizing things would be useful
to a Marine.
I think the original IQ test was for the military.
I was tested for the draft here and immediately assigned to the air force.
But did not have to serve as there was a law here 'eldest son breadwinner'.
But sure enough my first job was designing stuff for the telcos, army and navy,
so wound up there anyways and worked on those navy ships, dangerous...
I used to work on ships, designing control systems and for a while
going out and maintaining them.
The steam plants were especially dangerous. A welded pipe joint might
leak an invisible jet that would cut you in half. The crew would test
a joint by waving a broomstick around it, and see if the end would
be sliced off and fall to the deck.
Sounds bad..
I did not like the intense noise in the machine rooms from the diesel engines,
and the small doors and gangways you had to 'creep' through.
The steam plants were deafening too, and we had a giant aux diesel
too. You had to scream directly into someone's ear. People wore
construction-type helmets with ear pads, but I wore my motorcycle
helmet.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Almost got electrocuted working on a power supply on a heli deck..
We had asked for the power to be turned off so we could change some stuff.
I opened the (big) box and felt that funny tingling on my nose...
to my boss "feels like there still is power"
measured it, sure
he almost fainted...
Guy had turned off the wrong switch..
In the next summer vacation I applied for a job in broadcasting and got it.
Had designed and build my own portable video camera so knew enough :-)
There were 6 of us hired, We then got 6 month training in all things broadcast related... payed for.
followed by an exam, 2 dropped out (you have to have a feel for that stuff).
2 more dropped out later...
I was tweaking a trimpot to tune a nonlinear function generator and
got the prop up to 50 RPM, and almost tore the LASH ship off the dock
into the Mississippi river, and probably would have killed someone.
The Chief ran over and shut things down.
I once rode a ship from San Francisco to San Pedro, at maybe $100 per
hour, to diagnose an erratic steam plant. The fix was a quarter turn
on a screw on a terminal strip. That was from the RPM feedback tach.
The constant vibration had loosened a lot of screws.
Doing physical stuff is fun. Typing all day, not so much.
There was a nice program about 'Old man river' on TV few days ago, showing how it was discovered
people looking for the source, the natives and the fights and what it looks like now.
Yesterday I was looking for a nice catamaran for a world tour :-)
For a couple of thousand you have something for the adventurer.
https://tesup.com/nl/tesup-verticale-windturbines-voor-woningen
then use electric motors, big battery packs.
Then no matter what direction the wind comes from you always have power and can steer in any direction...
Somebody already did that it seems
And solar panels I already have..
Anyways before the nuking here starts, better sail away...
Bit more south maybe a safer place...
Not the first time I had that sail-away plan, but world tensions increase by thr day now.
One could put a wind turbine on a boat and drive a prop in the water.
It's just an impedance matching problem.
Bill Sloman
2024-09-10 05:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Sep 2024 09:27:13 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 07:56:15 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 08:59:06 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700, john larkin
<snip>
Post by john larkin
One could put a wind turbine on a boat and drive a prop in the water.
It's just an impedance matching problem.
Not exactly. A wind-turbine big enough to generate much power is big
enough to get blown over in a storm.

Sailing vessels could strike their canvas in bad weather and run under
bares poles. Wind turbines can be feathered, but the blades still have a
lot of surface area.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 15:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
If they can't visualise (or visualize if you prefer), then, if I may invent a few new words, can they hearalise? smellalise?
touchalise? tastealise?
Clive Arthur
2024-09-06 15:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
If they can't visualise (or visualize if you prefer), then, if I may invent a few new words, can they hearalise? smellalise?
touchalise? tastealise?
As long as they don't analyse in public.
--
Cheers
Clive
Don Y
2024-09-06 18:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
If they can't visualise (or visualize if you prefer), then, if I may invent a few new words, can they hearalise? smellalise?
touchalise? tastealise?
Of course! How do you think a musician looks at a piece of sheet music
and figures out what it's *supposed* to sound like? Or, the pronunciation
for a word in a dictionary and know what it will sound like?

How do you think a baker/chef/bartender assembles ingredients with an
expectation of what it will *taste* like?

Don't you conjure an "image" when someone talks about "burning sulfur"?
Or, "vanilla"?

Can't you imagine what a piece of silk feels like? Sandpaper? Grease?
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 18:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
If they can't visualise (or visualize if you prefer), then, if I may invent a few new words, can they hearalise? smellalise?
touchalise? tastealise?
Of course! How do you think a musician looks at a piece of sheet music
and figures out what it's *supposed* to sound like?
I've absolutely no idea how a musician does that but I know it can be done because I can look at the tune on this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Down,_O_Love_Divine
And hear it in my mind in full four part harmony with a choir of my choice.
I even translated it into the appropriate hand movements a few minutes ago and only made one mistake in the fiddly bit near the end.
I've no idea how I can do that either.
Post by Don Y
Or, the pronunciation
for a word in a dictionary and know what it will sound like?
I recall someone once saying that the utterance of a single word causes activity to ripple across the cortex.
No surprise there since such an activity requires complex coordination of myriad muscles.

I've no idea how I know what a spoken word will sound like but I learned to produce them from an early age.
Post by Don Y
How do you think a baker/chef/bartender assembles ingredients with an
expectation of what it will *taste* like?
From their experience of doing it previously.
Post by Don Y
Don't you conjure an "image" when someone talks about "burning sulfur"?
Or, "vanilla"?
I can if I want.
Post by Don Y
Can't you imagine what a piece of silk feels like? Sandpaper? Grease?
Sure I can. Was there a question here?
Don Y
2024-09-06 18:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
How do you think a baker/chef/bartender assembles ingredients with an
expectation of what it will *taste* like?
From their experience of doing it previously.
That's a non-answer and suggests that they had made *that* concoction
previously.

Rather, when you "make something new", you are relying on what each of
the ingredients separately brings to the result (OTHER, previously
encountered results) and weigh whether or not you want some portion
of that to be present in your new creation.

Potatoes have a different taste/texture than rice. Which (if any) do you
want in this dish?

Buttermilk has a different taste than heavy cream. Which do you want
this gelato to use as its base?
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
Don't you conjure an "image" when someone talks about "burning sulfur"?
Or, "vanilla"?
I can if I want.
I think the point is that most people do this instinctively. If they
want to *savor* a memory of a scent (or flavor or imagery or...)
then they may put extra effort into recalling it WITHOUT distraction.
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
Can't you imagine what a piece of silk feels like? Sandpaper? Grease?
Sure I can. Was there a question here?
You wondered if people could "feelize", etc. I find it hard to imagine
that folks could NOT imagine what silk, sandpaper, grease feels like.
Edward Rawde
2024-09-06 19:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
How do you think a baker/chef/bartender assembles ingredients with an
expectation of what it will *taste* like?
From their experience of doing it previously.
That's a non-answer and suggests that they had made *that* concoction
previously.
Of course it does. That's what I meant. Practice makes perfect.
Post by Don Y
Rather, when you "make something new", you are relying on what each of
the ingredients separately brings to the result (OTHER, previously
encountered results) and weigh whether or not you want some portion
of that to be present in your new creation.
Potatoes have a different taste/texture than rice. Which (if any) do you
want in this dish?
Buttermilk has a different taste than heavy cream. Which do you want
this gelato to use as its base?
Ok so you are trying out something new.
Nothing wrong or unusual there and nothing I disagree with.
I sometimes do that on the piano.
Post by Don Y
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
Don't you conjure an "image" when someone talks about "burning sulfur"?
Or, "vanilla"?
I can if I want.
I think the point is that most people do this instinctively. If they
want to *savor* a memory of a scent (or flavor or imagery or...)
then they may put extra effort into recalling it WITHOUT distraction.
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by Don Y
Can't you imagine what a piece of silk feels like? Sandpaper? Grease?
Sure I can. Was there a question here?
You wondered if people could "feelize", etc. I find it hard to imagine
that folks could NOT imagine what silk, sandpaper, grease feels like.
I do too but it appears that there are some people who cannot.
Joerg
2024-09-06 23:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Many may just have never tried hard enough. In their dreams almost all
people do though.
Post by john larkin
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Yesterday I did a bike ride with the guys. Very hot weather and half way
through the ride I had this image in my head of a large stein of
Pilsener, with foam and with the condensation water dripping down the
outside of the glass. It gave me a lot of extra punch to get to the
brewpub faster.

https://cameradobrewing.com/our-beers

Often Dan or Kate already start pouring a Pilsener when they see me
rolling up on the road bike.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Joe Gwinn
2024-09-07 17:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joerg
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Many may just have never tried hard enough. In their dreams almost all
people do though.
Post by john larkin
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Yesterday I did a bike ride with the guys. Very hot weather and half way
through the ride I had this image in my head of a large stein of
Pilsener, with foam and with the condensation water dripping down the
outside of the glass. It gave me a lot of extra punch to get to the
brewpub faster.
<https://cameradobrewing.com/our-beers>
Often Dan or Kate already start pouring a Pilsener when they see me
rolling up on the road bike.
Sounds like the old sales motivation: "Visualize Success!"

Joe Gwinn
john larkin
2024-09-08 16:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
Post by Joerg
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Many may just have never tried hard enough. In their dreams almost all
people do though.
Post by john larkin
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
Yesterday I did a bike ride with the guys. Very hot weather and half way
through the ride I had this image in my head of a large stein of
Pilsener, with foam and with the condensation water dripping down the
outside of the glass. It gave me a lot of extra punch to get to the
brewpub faster.
<https://cameradobrewing.com/our-beers>
Often Dan or Kate already start pouring a Pilsener when they see me
rolling up on the road bike.
Sounds like the old sales motivation: "Visualize Success!"
Joe Gwinn
Visualize cold beer!
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-07 06:58:54 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
Sure on problem, on my table there also is a small glass jar with some apple juice and a foil top with small holes
and many insects caught in it:
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a45085435/fruit-fly-traps-indoors-diy/
Post by john larkin
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
There was an interesting program on teefee here where electrodes were put in patients brains
to suppress depression.
Experimental, live feedback with a shrink using a remote to adjust..
Maybe one could create hallucinations and images too with electrodes,
is not Musk working on some brain electrodes thing too?
I think most these days go for drugs.. LSD, what not.
But that is also as old as humanity consuming special plants...

Anyways teefee and internet fish-you-all-ice a lot
john larkin
2024-09-07 15:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
Sure on problem, on my table there also is a small glass jar with some apple juice and a foil top with small holes
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a45085435/fruit-fly-traps-indoors-diy/
We like to leave the door open at our new office. We get fresh air and
neighbors and kids and dogs and fruit flies.

These really work:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRHXM0I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Jan Panteltje
2024-09-08 07:14:02 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:26:09 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
Sure on problem, on my table there also is a small glass jar with some apple juice and a foil top with small holes
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a45085435/fruit-fly-traps-indoors-diy/
We like to leave the door open at our new office. We get fresh air and
neighbors and kids and dogs and fruit flies.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRHXM0I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Expensive,
using a glass bottle with holes in the lid works best this site says, costs nothing, re-usable
https://www.thekitchn.com/diy-fruit-fly-traps-22942130
that is what I use (no lid but foil, should try a lid too some day, plenty of empty honey bottles here).
You can see how effective it is by what is in it :-)

I did buy a box with holes and some poison against ants, few month ago we had a big invasion,
hundreds of dead ants I had to hoover up after that.
john larkin
2024-09-08 16:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:26:09 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Fri, 06 Sep 2024 07:53:46 -0700) it happened john larkin
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
Sure on problem, on my table there also is a small glass jar with some apple juice and a foil top with small holes
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a45085435/fruit-fly-traps-indoors-diy/
We like to leave the door open at our new office. We get fresh air and
neighbors and kids and dogs and fruit flies.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRHXM0I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Expensive,
using a glass bottle with holes in the lid works best this site says, costs nothing, re-usable
These come with enough liquid stuff for one refill. Actually, if they
dry out some one can add water too. Until they are solid plugged with
dead flies.
Post by Jan Panteltje
https://www.thekitchn.com/diy-fruit-fly-traps-22942130
that is what I use (no lid but foil, should try a lid too some day, plenty of empty honey bottles here).
You can see how effective it is by what is in it :-)
That looks labor intensive. We'd rather be designing electronics. I
figure that a year of engineering should result in one or better yet
two million dollars in ultimate sales, which works out to around $1000
per hour. And Amazon delivers.
Post by Jan Panteltje
I did buy a box with holes and some poison against ants, few month ago we had a big invasion,
hundreds of dead ants I had to hoover up after that.
Our state+fed corporate tax rate is about 50%, so we get half off
everything!
brian
2024-09-07 12:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had
with his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked
him to visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close
their eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From
the side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people
who can't, that could explain a great deal.
I can do that easily. I can also modify objects in my head. It's a shame
I can't do a hard copy. I can also "auralise" sounds, but I suppose most
can do that. I can't do smells or taste. I suppose there might be
people who can do that.

Brian
--
Brian Howie
Cursitor Doom
2024-09-08 15:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by john larkin
I was driving and listening to the local mostly-annoying NPR radio
station, but they had an interesting interview with a book author. It
was about his novel or some poetry or something.
What was interesting was his recalling a conversation that he'd had with
his wife. She was takling about a plant or something and asked him to
visualize it. He was astounded that she, or anyone, could close their
eyes and *see* something they were thinking about.
I was shocked to learn that there are people who can't form a mental
visual image.
Close your eyes and consider a nice white ceramic dinner plate with a
beautiful deep red apple sitting in the center. Can you see it? From the
side and from the top? Do you see the stem? The colors? Imagine it
slowly rotating? See the fruit fly?
If the world is divided between people who can visualise and people who
can't, that could explain a great deal.
There's no fruit fly on my plate. I can see everything else but the fruit
fly.
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