OT: Search tricks?

[Don Y]

Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL. So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that". Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.

Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

[Jeroen Belleman]

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  [...]

I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.

Idiots.

Jeroen Belleman

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Jeroen Belleman

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  [...]

I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

[Don Y]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Jeroen Belleman

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  [...]

I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

But, if they can't show you what you want, then you likely won't BUY!

E.g., I searched for a stainless steel wallplate.
Do you really think I will SETTLE for a plastic/nylon one? If so, why
did I bother typing all of that extra text instead of just saying "wall plate"

ISTM that the dweeb writing the search algorithm would *likely* order results
based on number of terms matched (otherwise, search becomes incredibly
unproductive... as any qualifiers would match ANYTHING that happened to
also use those qualifiers: "red ball" would match "red lipstick", "red chalk",
"red onion", etc.)

If that is indeed the case, then one should look for the first result that
doesn't match all of your criteria and figure everything past that is just
noise...

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

On 8/21/24 21:57, Don Y wrote: > Is there some secret handshake to
coerce *etail* sites to pay closer > attention > to your search
criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY > of
your terms instead of ALL.  [...]
I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

But, if they can't show you what you want, then you likely won't BUY!

[...]

That's not how the search engines get paid. They get paid for the
adverts they show you, not for whether you buy anything from those
adverts. If the advertiser finds only a very few of his 'hits' result
in sales, he will blame the advertisment or the product, not the search
engine.

It's all back-to-front because it is driven from the advertising end,
not from the searchers' end.

[Don Y]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

On 8/21/24 21:57, Don Y wrote: > Is there some secret handshake to
coerce *etail* sites to pay closer > attention > to your search
criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY > of
your terms instead of ALL.  [...]
I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

But, if they can't show you what you want, then you likely won't BUY!

[...]
That's not how the search engines get paid. They get paid for the
adverts they show you, not for whether you buy anything from those
adverts. If the advertiser finds only a very few of his 'hits' result
in sales, he will blame the advertisment or the product, not the search
engine.
It's all back-to-front because it is driven from the advertising end,
not from the searchers' end.

That may be true of "Internet" search engines (Google, DuckDuckGo, etc.)

But, an etailer's site sells THEIR products, not items "advertised"
for other vendors.

[Wanderer]

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to
coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention to your search
criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY of
your terms instead of ALL.
I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

But, if they can't show you what you want, then you likely won't BUY!

That's not how the search engines get paid. They get paid for the
adverts they show you, not for whether you buy anything from those
adverts. If the advertiser finds only a very few of his 'hits' result
in sales, he will blame the advertisment or the product, not the search
engine.
It's all back-to-front because it is driven from the advertising end,
not from the searchers' end.

That may be true of "Internet" search engines (Google, DuckDuckGo, etc.)
But, an etailer's site sells THEIR products, not items "advertised"
for other vendors.

They're screwing up the search price low to high feature. You get 10 pages of 10 cent
doodads that have nothing to do with what you looking for peppered with the expensive
featured items. Last time at Amazon, I couldn't find the selection for best fit. It was
just Featured, Low to High and High to Low.

I wonder if you can get ChatGPT or other AI to help search. I haven't played with any of them,
cause I'm not sure I trust them.

[Don Y]

Post by Wanderer

Post by Don Y
But, an etailer's site sells THEIR products, not items "advertised"
for other vendors.

They're screwing up the search price low to high feature. You get 10 pages of 10 cent
doodads that have nothing to do with what you looking for peppered with the expensive
featured items. Last time at Amazon, I couldn't find the selection for best fit. It was
just Featured, Low to High and High to Low.
I wonder if you can get ChatGPT or other AI to help search. I haven't played with any of them,
cause I'm not sure I trust them.

Vendors show a great deal of disdain for their customers.

I've grown tired of having to chase down items in brick-n-mortal
sites: "It was HERE, last week; now WHERE have you moved it?
Why do I have to wander around looking for it OR try to flag
down an employee so HE can do that for me?"

[Of course, they want you to "explore" the store to possibly stumble
on something else you didn't "KNOW" you wanted. "Sorry, my time is
worth too much to waste because of your deliberate efforts to waste it!"]

So, we've adopted a simple strategy: if you can't EASILY find what
you want, put it on the list for some other store. (we have preprinted
shopping lists so we can just circle the items we need on this trip
and write the name of the store on the top of the sheet -- instead of
having to handwrite lists which always tend to have the same items)

Eventually, we find ourselves only buying one or two items from a
particular store (e.g., yesterday, I bought cherry tomatoes and bulk
coffee from sprouts because they are a "sole source" for those
particular items; previously we would actually *shop* there) and our
visits become correspondingly infrequent. Eventually, we just stop,
altogether. (Of course, having lots of local choices nearby makes
this easier)

It's also fun to tell the cashier, who rhetorically asks, "Did you
find everything you were looking for?" "No; we'll buy those other
items elsewhere..." (they aren't expecting such a candid answer)

[boB]

Post by Wanderer

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Don Y

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to
coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention to your search
criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY of
your terms instead of ALL.
I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.
Idiots.

They aren't there to help you find what you want, they are there to sell
you what they get paid for.

But, if they can't show you what you want, then you likely won't BUY!

That's not how the search engines get paid. They get paid for the
adverts they show you, not for whether you buy anything from those
adverts. If the advertiser finds only a very few of his 'hits' result
in sales, he will blame the advertisment or the product, not the search
engine.
It's all back-to-front because it is driven from the advertising end,
not from the searchers' end.

That may be true of "Internet" search engines (Google, DuckDuckGo, etc.)
But, an etailer's site sells THEIR products, not items "advertised"
for other vendors.

They're screwing up the search price low to high feature. You get 10 pages of 10 cent
doodads that have nothing to do with what you looking for peppered with the expensive
featured items. Last time at Amazon, I couldn't find the selection for best fit. It was
just Featured, Low to High and High to Low.
I wonder if you can get ChatGPT or other AI to help search. I haven't played with any of them,
cause I'm not sure I trust them.

Last year I used ChatGPT to give me a number for a D-Squared PAK fast
recovery diode. It did and I ordered some.

ChatGPT also warned me that its training data was not up to date which
I appreciated.

This is where I have to be very careful with my search terms just to
get that search engine to understand my question. That is where AI
comes in handy. It can do more with my question some times.

Maybe sites like Octopart will eventually incorporate some AI in its
searches ?

boB

[Don Y]

Post by Jeroen Belleman

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  [...]

I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.

I wasn't thinking of an explicit *operator* as much as careful grouping.
E.g.,
"stainless steel" "2 gang" "wall plate"
to match all variants of those *three* phrases -- and NOT:
wall plate
OR two gang
OR stainless steel
(OR stainless OR steel OR two OR gang OR wall OR plate...)

Post by Jeroen Belleman
Idiots.

They obviously think more folks will spend extra time trying to settle
for something than moving on.

[Joe Gwinn]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 15:26:35 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeroen Belleman

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  [...]

Exactly.

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeroen Belleman
I tried that. They'll take the intended logical operator as yet
another search term and show you *more* undesired results.

You have to phrase and punctuate it correctly.

Post by Don Y
I wasn't thinking of an explicit *operator* as much as careful grouping.
E.g.,
"stainless steel" "2 gang" "wall plate"
wall plate
OR two gang
OR stainless steel
(OR stainless OR steel OR two OR gang OR wall OR plate...)

Post by Jeroen Belleman
Idiots.

They obviously think more folks will spend extra time trying to settle
for something than moving on.

And they're probably right, because if it didn't usually lead to a
sale, they would stop trying to deflect people with decoys. I'm sure
they have tested all manner of approaches, and the present one won.

Joe Gwinn

[Don Y]

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Don Y
They obviously think more folks will spend extra time trying to settle
for something than moving on.

And they're probably right, because if it didn't usually lead to a
sale, they would stop trying to deflect people with decoys. I'm sure
they have tested all manner of approaches, and the present one won.

The only data they get is if a sale is made *through* the web site.
If I find an item on a competitor's site, they'll never know.
And, if I don't buy it THROUGH the website, they'll never know if
I have "settled" or not.

[Joe Gwinn]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 12:57:34 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL. So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that". Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

Exactly.

Post by Don Y
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

The best I've come up with is to use "site:<>" (without the quotes) to
qualify a google search. For instance google for "item
site:etail.com". This is useful for Amazon searches, but google is
also trying to sell. Used to be that a + in front of a term required
it to be present, but now only quoting the term seems to work. It also
used to be that a - would forbid the term; maybe an "and not"
qualifier will work. Takes some fiddling.

Joe Gwinn

[Phil Hobbs]

Post by Joe Gwinn
On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 12:57:34 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL. So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that". Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

Exactly.

Post by Don Y
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

The best I've come up with is to use "site:<>" (without the quotes) to
qualify a google search. For instance google for "item
site:etail.com". This is useful for Amazon searches, but google is
also trying to sell. Used to be that a + in front of a term required
it to be present, but now only quoting the term seems to work. It also
used to be that a - would forbid the term; maybe an "and not"
qualifier will work. Takes some fiddling.
Joe Gwinn

I miss the “advanced search” dialog.

Peak web was 2008. :(

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 12:57:34 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL. So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that". Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Which web search engine are you using? Google, DuckDuckGo, Brave,
Bing, etc:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines>
Or, are you using the web site's server search feature to look for
products available from a specific web vendor? I guess that might be
what you mean by an "*etail* site.

I normally use Google for searching. However, Google became greedy
about 15 years ago by inserting paid advertising into the beginning of
the search results. What works best for me is to do an image search
for the product of interest. Google inserts adds along the top of the
first page, but hasn't butchered the rest of the image search results,
yet.

Note that Google Advanced Search is still available:
<https://www.google.com/advanced_search>

I also use some of the advanced search operators built into Google
Search:
<https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced-search-operators/>
<https://moz.com/learn/seo/search-operators>
However, some of these search operators are broken and Google shows
little interest in fixing them:
<https://searchengineland.com/advanced-google-search-operators-388355>

Another useful search tool is a browser extension that removes the
tracking information from the URL that Google (and others) find. I
use ClearURLs, which is probably not the best, but I'm used to its
problems:
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clearurls/>
<https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clearurls/lckanjgmijmafbedllaakclkaicjfmnk?hl=en&pli=1>

If your problem is with the search built into an *etail* web site,
you'll need to disclose the site in question. They're all different
and there is no universal fix. I've noticed that providing far more
products than the search should have provided is now standard
procedure for most shopping sites. Maybe the first few items are
within my search filter, but the rest are "closely related" items that
the operators of the shopping site believe might be of interest.
Despite the obvious problems resulting from flooding the buyer with
unwanted product offers, sometimes the closely related product
provides something of interest.

Good luck.

[Don Y]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Which web search engine are you using? Google, DuckDuckGo, Brave,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines>
Or, are you using the web site's server search feature to look for
products available from a specific web vendor? I guess that might be
what you mean by an "*etail* site.

Exactly. I'm going to PICK UP an item, today. Which store will I drive
to? Which carries the item? Which has it IN STOCK? Where, in the store,
is it located?

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If your problem is with the search built into an *etail* web site,
you'll need to disclose the site in question. They're all different
and there is no universal fix. I've noticed that providing far more
products than the search should have provided is now standard
procedure for most shopping sites. Maybe the first few items are
within my search filter, but the rest are "closely related" items that
the operators of the shopping site believe might be of interest.

Hence abandoning the search as soon as it veers away from your
EXPRESSED interest.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Despite the obvious problems resulting from flooding the buyer with
unwanted product offers, sometimes the closely related product
provides something of interest.
Good luck.

What's equally entertaining is how decoupled the web sites are from their
actual sense of what's on hand. Do they even TRY to tie their online
inventory data to their actual sales data? Or, do they have dweebs walk
through the store, periodically, COUNTING items to update the web site's
inventory?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:00:43 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Which web search engine are you using? Google, DuckDuckGo, Brave,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines>
Or, are you using the web site's server search feature to look for
products available from a specific web vendor? I guess that might be
what you mean by an "*etail* site.

Exactly. I'm going to PICK UP an item, today. Which store will I drive
to? Which carries the item? Which has it IN STOCK? Where, in the store,
is it located?

You didn't answer my question. Are you:
[ ] searching the entire internet?
[ ] searching the vendors shopping site?

I already offered a few suggestions for searching the entire internet
with your choice of web search page and search options. However, I
can't offer any advice on how to customize a shopping site, which is
under the control of the vendor.

As for "going to pickup an item today", I don't do much of that. I
usually have the vendor ship me my purchases. In general, the
inventory is accurate for items that use commercial delivery services
(i.e. automated warehouse). I can't say the same for store inventory,
which is subject to various types of shrinkage, such as theft,
mis-filing, hidden behind other items, customer return problems,
packaging damage, open boxes, etc.

[Don Y]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:00:43 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Which web search engine are you using? Google, DuckDuckGo, Brave,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines>
Or, are you using the web site's server search feature to look for
products available from a specific web vendor? I guess that might be
what you mean by an "*etail* site.

Exactly. I'm going to PICK UP an item, today. Which store will I drive
to? Which carries the item? Which has it IN STOCK? Where, in the store,
is it located?

[ ] searching the entire internet?
[ ] searching the vendors shopping site?

I am searching etailers' sites. Whether that is Ace Hardware, Home Depot,
Lowes, Amazon, etc. Any business that has a presence on the internet.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I already offered a few suggestions for searching the entire internet
with your choice of web search page and search options. However, I
can't offer any advice on how to customize a shopping site, which is
under the control of the vendor.
As for "going to pickup an item today", I don't do much of that. I
usually have the vendor ship me my purchases. In general, the
inventory is accurate for items that use commercial delivery services
(i.e. automated warehouse). I can't say the same for store inventory,
which is subject to various types of shrinkage, such as theft,
mis-filing, hidden behind other items, customer return problems,
packaging damage, open boxes, etc.

My latest "escapade" is the result of Amazon botching an order;
canceling it the day it was to be delivered. So, now to find
those same items elsewhere having already lost the days that
I could afford to lose WAITING for their arrival. "Who has these
items TODAY, in town and IN STOCK?"

I could spend the day driving from one store to another looking
through aisles to see if they carry them and have them in stock.

Or, I could visit web sites and try to get answers to these same
questions, venture forth and HOPE the "in stock" quantity listed
on the web site is accurate (it wasn't, at Home Depot).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 22:11:55 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:00:43 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Which web search engine are you using? Google, DuckDuckGo, Brave,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines>
Or, are you using the web site's server search feature to look for
products available from a specific web vendor? I guess that might be
what you mean by an "*etail* site.

Exactly. I'm going to PICK UP an item, today. Which store will I drive
to? Which carries the item? Which has it IN STOCK? Where, in the store,
is it located?

[ ] searching the entire internet?
[ ] searching the vendors shopping site?

I am searching etailers' sites. Whether that is Ace Hardware, Home Depot,
Lowes, Amazon, etc. Any business that has a presence on the internet.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I already offered a few suggestions for searching the entire internet
with your choice of web search page and search options. However, I
can't offer any advice on how to customize a shopping site, which is
under the control of the vendor.
As for "going to pickup an item today", I don't do much of that. I
usually have the vendor ship me my purchases. In general, the
inventory is accurate for items that use commercial delivery services
(i.e. automated warehouse). I can't say the same for store inventory,
which is subject to various types of shrinkage, such as theft,
mis-filing, hidden behind other items, customer return problems,
packaging damage, open boxes, etc.

My latest "escapade" is the result of Amazon botching an order;
canceling it the day it was to be delivered. So, now to find
those same items elsewhere having already lost the days that
I could afford to lose WAITING for their arrival. "Who has these
items TODAY, in town and IN STOCK?"

Ok. That means you know the maker and model of the item that you
intend to buy. In other words, you're not searching for a item to
buy, but instead are searching for a vendor that has that item in
stock.

Most online shopping sites have filters to help you select products,
availability, shipping preferences, etc. Pick a likely online vendor,
find the item that you intend to buy, and see what they have to offer
in terms of availability, shipping and nearby stores that might have
stock. For example, if I find something on Harbor Freight, and the
item is not in stock, I can select another store that has it in stock.

Post by Don Y
I could spend the day driving from one store to another looking
through aisles to see if they carry them and have them in stock.

Or, you could spend a few minutes checking some likely vendors who
claim to have it in stock or claim to have expedited service. Again,
because of shrinkage in retail stores, stock count from an automated
warehouse is far more accurate than stock count from a retail store.
Note that most stores do a physical inventory count once per year for
the benefit of the auditors, not the customers.

If you bought in large quantities from a wholesale warehouse, you
would probably ask for regular inventory counts of the items you
routinely purchase. With such a report, you can order "from
inventory" and have a good chance of actually getting what you order.
However, in the quantities we buy for our own use, none of us would
qualify for such a service.

Post by Don Y
Or, I could visit web sites and try to get answers to these same
questions, venture forth and HOPE the "in stock" quantity listed
on the web site is accurate (it wasn't, at Home Depot).

Yep. Good, fast delivery, cheap. Pick any two.

[Don Y]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
My latest "escapade" is the result of Amazon botching an order;
canceling it the day it was to be delivered. So, now to find
those same items elsewhere having already lost the days that
I could afford to lose WAITING for their arrival. "Who has these
items TODAY, in town and IN STOCK?"

Ok. That means you know the maker and model of the item that you
intend to buy. In other words, you're not searching for a item to
buy, but instead are searching for a vendor that has that item in
stock.

Yes. I am "letting my fingers do the walking"...

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Most online shopping sites have filters to help you select products,
availability, shipping preferences, etc. Pick a likely online vendor,
find the item that you intend to buy, and see what they have to offer
in terms of availability, shipping and nearby stores that might have
stock. For example, if I find something on Harbor Freight, and the
item is not in stock, I can select another store that has it in stock.

Here is the first page of results of a search for "leviton two gang
stainless steel wall plate"
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=leviton+two+gang+stainless+steel+wall+plate>

1 Leviton SL262 C-Series 2-Gang 2 Decora/ Decora Plus/GFCI, Type 430
Stainless Steel
2 Leviton 84016-40 2-Gang, Duplex Device Receptacle Wallplate,
Standard Size, Device Mount, Stainless Steel
3 Leviton 84409-40 2-Gang Decora/GFCI Device Decora Wallplate,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel
4 Leviton SO262 2-Gang Decora/GFCI Device Decora Wallplate,
Oversized, 302 Stainless Steel, Device Mount, Stainless Steel
5 Leviton 84009 2-Gang Toggle Device Switch Wallplate, Standard Size,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel
6 Leviton 84009-40 84409-40 2-Gang Toggle Switch Wallplate, Standard
Size, Device Mount, 1 Pack, Stainless Steel
7 Leviton SL23 C-Series 2-Gang Blank, Type 430 Stainless Steel, 1 Count
(Pack of 1)
8 Leviton 84005-40 2-Gang 1-Toggle 1-Duplex Device Combination Wallplate,
Standard Size, Device Mount, Stainless Steel
9 Leviton SJ826-40 2-Gang, 1-DECORA (R) Brand (R), 1-Duplex Receptacle
Stainless Steel, Midway Size Wallplate, Stainless Steel with blue
10 Leviton SL701 C-Series 2-Gang Single 2.465" Diameter Opening, Type
430 Stainless Steel
11 Leviton SL703 C-Series 2-Gang Single 2.15" Diameter Opening, Type
430 Stainless Steel
12 Leviton S126 2-Gang 1-Toggle, Decora/GFCI Device Combination Wallplate,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel
13 Leviton 84109-40 SS WP 2G TGL OVERSIZED
14 Leviton 84016 2-Gang Duplex Device Receptacle Wallplate, Standard Size,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel
15 Leviton 43080-2S4 4PORT DG QP WP STAINLESS STEEL
16 Leviton S746-N 2-Gang 1-Decora/GFCI Centered Device Decora Wallplate,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel, Image
17 Leviton 43080-1S2 2PORT SG QP WP STAINLESS STEEL
18 Leviton S701-40 2-Gang Power Receptacle Wallplate, Flush Mount,
Standard Size, Device Mount, 302 Stainless Steel
19 ENERLITES Decorator Switch or Receptacle Outlet Metal Wall Plate,
Corrosion Resistant, Size 2-Gang 4.50" x 4.57", UL Listed, 7732, 430
20 ENERLITES Toggle Light Switch Stainless Steel Wall Plate, Metal Plate
Corrosive Resistant Cover for Rotary Dimmers Lights, Size 2-Gang 4.50"
21 Lutron Claro 2 Gang Decorator/Rocker Wallplate, Stainless Steel
(1-Pack) | CW-2-SS
22 Leviton 84116 SS WP 2G DUP OVERSIZED
23 Leviton 43081-1L2 2-Port Angled Stainless Steel QuickPort Single
Gang Wallplate with ID Windows
24 Leviton SJ126-40 2-Gang, 1-Toggle, 1-Decora Stainless Steel, Midway
Size Wallplate, Stainless Steel
25 Leviton SL748 C-Series 2-Gang 1 Duplex, Type 430 Stainless Steel
26 Legrand Pass & Seymour SL703CC12 Stainless Steel Type 430 Wall
Plate, 2 Gang, One Power Outlet Opening, 4 Mounting Holes,
27 Leviton 84085-40 SS WP 2G BLANK/REC 1,406 HOLE STRAP MNT, Image
28 Leviton 84401-40 1-Gang Decora/GFCI Device Decora Wallplate ,
Device Mount, Stainless Steel
29 Leviton 2-Gang Decora Device Wallplate, Standard Size, 302 Stainless
Steel, Non-Magnetic, Device Mount, Over-Molded Gasket - Stainless
30 Leviton 84121-40 3 GANG 302 SS 2 TGL 1 DUPLEX OVERSIZE WP
31 2 Gang Decorator Outlet Covers Double Switch Plate Metal Rocker Wall
Plate, Stainless Steel Receptacle Outlet Covers for Light
32 ENERLITES Blank Device Stainless Steel Wall Plate, Metal Corrosive
Resistant Cover for Unused Outlets Light Switches Holes, Size 2-Gang 4.50"
33 OVERSIZED 2 Gang Blank Stainless Steel Light Switch Cover - Jumbo Two
Gang Blank (no holes) Metal Wall Plate, 430 Stainless Steel -
34 [5 Pack] BESTTEN 2 Gang Decor Metal Wall Plate with Plastic Film,
Decorator Stainless Steel Outlet Cover, Durable Corrosion Resistant
35 ENERLITES Combination Blank Device or Decorator Switch Metal Wall
Plate, Corrosive Resistant, Size 2-Gang 4.50" x 4.57", 770131, 430
36 Legrand Pass & Seymour SL262CC10 Stainless Steel Type 430 Wall
Plate, 2 Gang, Two Decorator Rocker GFCI Cover,
37 Double Light Switch Cover Metal Wall Plates Toggle Switch Plate
Covers 2 Gang Stainless Steel Switch Faceplate, 4-Pack
38 Leviton 84409-A40 Disinfectant Treated Decora Wallplate, 2 Gang,
Standard Size, Powder Coated Stainless Steel
39 SS13-40 C-Series 1-Gang Blank, Type 302/304 Stainless Steel
40 ENERLITES Double Duplex Receptacle Metal Wall Plate, Stainless
Steel Socket Outlet Switch Cover, Corrosive Resistant, 2-Gang 4.50" x 4.57",
41 Leviton SL263 C-Series 3-Gang 3 Decora/ Decora Plus/GFCI, Type 430
Stainless Steel
42 ENERLITES Combination Toggle Light Switch or Decorator Switch Metal
Wall Plate, Corrosive Resistant, Size 2-Gang 4.50" x 4.57", 771131, 430
43 Leviton 84003-40 1-Gang Duplex Device Receptacle Wallplate, Standard
Size, Device Mount, Stainless Steel
44 ENERLITES Combination Two Toggle/One Duplex Receptacle Metal Wall
Plate, Oversize 3-Gang, 5.51” x 7.48”, UL Listed, 771221O, 430
45 Leviton SSJ82-40 2-Gang, 2-Duplex Receptacles Stainless Steel, Midway
Size Wallplate, Stainless Steel
46 [5 Pack] BESTTEN 2-Gang No Device Metal Blank Wall Plate with Ｗhite
or Clear Plastic Film, Corrosion-Resistant Stainless Steel
47 Leviton SS26-40 C-Series 1-Gang Decora/ Decora Plus/GFCI, Type
302/304 Stainless Steel
48 [5 Pack] BESTTEN 2-Gang Duplex Stainless Steel Wall Plate with
Protective Film, Standard Size, Corrosion Resistant Metal Outlet

Of these 48 results: 17 fail to mention "Leviton" (19, 20, 21, 26, 31,
32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 39, 40, 42, 44, 46, 48); 6 are 1-gang (17, 23,
28, 39, 43, 47); and 3 are 3-gang (30, 41, 44) -- i.e., NOT "2-gang".

Home Depot produced 1307 hits for the same search criteria. And, it
was equally apparent that their results were as "mixed" as Amazon's
(including plastic/nylon materials as well!)

Lowes yielded 81 results -- none being "leviton" (different manufacturers
have different ideas as to how large a wall plate should be)

Was there something inherently tricky about my search criteria that a
company with pockets/resources (and "clout" with its vendors to insist
on accurate, descriptive, searchable product descriptions) like Amazon,
Home Depot or Loews couldn't interpret accurately?

I could understand some "local" shop ("electric supply company") having
a half-assed site with something as inane as FTS implemented (no heuristics)
but these people have the resources to make it convenient for THEIR
customers to spend money with them! (why would I order a product for
DELIVERY if the "stock on hand" was incorrect? And, I'd have to wait
three to ??? days to discover that the part won't be here when I expected...)

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
I could spend the day driving from one store to another looking
through aisles to see if they carry them and have them in stock.

Or, you could spend a few minutes checking some likely vendors who
claim to have it in stock or claim to have expedited service. Again,

That doesn't get me the item *today*.

I ordered these items over a week ago, with a 2-3 day delivery time.
When the parcel was scheduled to be delivered, I received an email claiming
it was "undeliverable" (with a link to a URL that explained possible
reasons instead of a SPECIFIC reason... I assumed "damaged" as the most
likely) having been returned to its vendor. My account showed the
package RESHIPPED thereafter with a two day delivery window. On the
appointed day, an email informed me that the order had been *canceled*
(but, not by *me*!)

So, instead of my plans to have it on hand before it was needed, I
was now faced with having to locate an alternate supplier that would
100% guarantee its prompt delivery. Shirley, that wouldn't be Amazon!

Two different Home Depot stores showed stock on hand of ~10 pieces
(each location). Both lied. Should I try the other two HD's in town?

Post by Jeff Liebermann
because of shrinkage in retail stores, stock count from an automated
warehouse is far more accurate than stock count from a retail store.

Yet *Amazon* was the initial source of the problem...

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Note that most stores do a physical inventory count once per year for
the benefit of the auditors, not the customers.
If you bought in large quantities from a wholesale warehouse, you
would probably ask for regular inventory counts of the items you
routinely purchase. With such a report, you can order "from
inventory" and have a good chance of actually getting what you order.
However, in the quantities we buy for our own use, none of us would
qualify for such a service.

Post by Don Y
Or, I could visit web sites and try to get answers to these same
questions, venture forth and HOPE the "in stock" quantity listed
on the web site is accurate (it wasn't, at Home Depot).

Yep. Good, fast delivery, cheap. Pick any two.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:41:53 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
My latest "escapade" is the result of Amazon botching an order;
canceling it the day it was to be delivered. So, now to find
those same items elsewhere having already lost the days that
I could afford to lose WAITING for their arrival. "Who has these
items TODAY, in town and IN STOCK?"

Ok. That means you know the maker and model of the item that you
intend to buy. In other words, you're not searching for a item to
buy, but instead are searching for a vendor that has that item in
stock.

Yes. I am "letting my fingers do the walking"...

Please re-read what I wrote. I had assumed that you know the maker
and model number of the item you want to purchase because you ordered
something and Amazon allegedly botched your order. However, the
example you provided was essentially starting your search from
scratch. You had a maker (Leviton) and a part number. Why didn't you
just search for that?

When you searched for a "leviton two gang stainless steel wall plate",
you didn't continue narrow the search by the type of outlet it fits
(decorative switch, toggle switch, duplex wall outlet). When I run
your search for:
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=leviton+two+gang+stainless+steel+wall+plate>
it shows 266 results (after I sorted by price low to high which tends
to eliminate duplicates) at the upper right. When I add the word
"switch" to the above searches string, it's down to 194 results. When
I add "standard size switch", it produces 169 results. If I then
group these words with quotation marks as in:
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=leviton+%22two+gang%22+%22stainless+steel%22+%22wall+plate%22+%22standard+size+switch%22>
It's down to 96 results. Most of the 96 are advertised items that you
don't want. However, the first few match the criteria. Look though
those, pick one, and order it.

Or, go to the Leviton web page, and find the exact item you want to
order.
<https://store.leviton.com/collections/home-wall-plates>
Then search Amazon for that exact number and order it.

The bad news is that Amazon has intentionally removed the "not"
operator (a minus sign) from search. I suspect this was to prevent
users from removing "featured" items (items you don't want but for
which Amazon gets paid to shove in your face). I used to be able to
trick Amazon search by using "advanced search" or by searching Amazon
from Google Search, but both of those no longer work. Sorry.

Ebay is somewhat better for searching because it has search operators:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/ebayadvsearch>

I'm out of time. Good luck (again).

[Don Y]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 20:41:53 -0700, Don Y

Post by Don Y

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Don Y
My latest "escapade" is the result of Amazon botching an order;
canceling it the day it was to be delivered. So, now to find
those same items elsewhere having already lost the days that
I could afford to lose WAITING for their arrival. "Who has these
items TODAY, in town and IN STOCK?"

Ok. That means you know the maker and model of the item that you
intend to buy. In other words, you're not searching for a item to
buy, but instead are searching for a vendor that has that item in
stock.

Yes. I am "letting my fingers do the walking"...

Please re-read what I wrote. I had assumed that you know the maker
and model number of the item you want to purchase because you ordered
something and Amazon allegedly botched your order. However, the
example you provided was essentially starting your search from
scratch. You had a maker (Leviton) and a part number. Why didn't you
just search for that?

Because I wanted (and had ordered) several different parts. What they
all had in common was "leviton stainless steel two gang wall plate".
I was willing to see the "extra" hits ut only ONCE in that search as I
picked out the "4 port", "6 port", "8 port", "12 port", "dual receptacle",
"dual Decora" and "blank" variants.

I *gambled* that this would be faster than 7 different searches, especially
if the vendor didn't have exactly what I was looking for AND was likely to
provide lots of unmatching hits!

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When you searched for a "leviton two gang stainless steel wall plate",
you didn't continue narrow the search by the type of outlet it fits
(decorative switch, toggle switch, duplex wall outlet). When I run
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=leviton+two+gang+stainless+steel+wall+plate>
it shows 266 results (after I sorted by price low to high which tends
to eliminate duplicates) at the upper right. When I add the word
"switch" to the above searches string, it's down to 194 results. When
I add "standard size switch", it produces 169 results. If I then
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=leviton+%22two+gang%22+%22stainless+steel%22+%22wall+plate%22+%22standard+size+switch%22>
It's down to 96 results. Most of the 96 are advertised items that you
don't want. However, the first few match the criteria. Look though
those, pick one, and order it.

I am not interested in wall plates with "toggle" (switch) or (single)
receptacle (in any form or receptacle size). Or, anything other than
two gang, stainless, leviton, etc. But, if those "perforations" appear
in the stated search criteria, there will likely be one instance of each:
dual toggles, toggle plus receptacle, single receptacle, "round" receptacle,
etc.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Or, go to the Leviton web page, and find the exact item you want to
order.
<https://store.leviton.com/collections/home-wall-plates>
Then search Amazon for that exact number and order it.
The bad news is that Amazon has intentionally removed the "not"
operator (a minus sign) from search. I suspect this was to prevent
users from removing "featured" items (items you don't want but for
which Amazon gets paid to shove in your face). I used to be able to
trick Amazon search by using "advanced search" or by searching Amazon
from Google Search, but both of those no longer work. Sorry.
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/ebayadvsearch>
I'm out of time. Good luck (again).

I've made another attempt at it. But, will now have to rearrange my
work schedule as the window in which I expected to have those items
has closed (moved forward indefinitely).

My point has been that specifying more terms should NARROW the results
yet seems to have the opposite effect.

And, reducing the number of terms would ALSO have that effect:
"leviton", "wall plate", "stainless steel", "two gang", etc.

[a***@spenarnc.xs4all.nl]

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria? It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL. So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that". Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

No gripe with temu. The search
last supper decoration
shows a first page with at least 60 canvasses, polychromed aluminium,
pseudo stained glass etc with the famous biblical motive.
Only one of them show apostles in a biblical scene that was not
the last supper, but at least the text contained "last supper".
Given that there are few Christians in China, the diversity is nothing
short of astonishing.
On the second page an occasional "resin crucifix wall hanger" appears,
but that is not wildly off topic, after 100 some straight hits.

Post by Don Y
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.
Has anyone else found a better scheme? Quoting arguments? etc.

Order with temu?

Groetjes Albert

[Martin Brown]

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that".  Likely because they hope you will "settle" for
something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

Some are better than others. I prefer those with filters that let you
choose maker, price range and whatever parameters really matter.

Post by Don Y
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.

Some sites own search facilities are so dire (BBC for instance) that the
only way to find stuff is to go into google and use +BBC together with
+keywords (this may work for some badly indexed etail sites too).

Amazon seems to have got worse in this respect. Abe books better...

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme?  Quoting arguments?  etc.

In quotes preceded by + or - to include or exclude terms works on some.

[Don Y]

Post by Don Y
Is there some secret handshake to coerce *etail* sites to pay closer attention
to your search criteria?  It seems like they produce results that match ANY
of your terms instead of ALL.  So, you scroll through page after page of
"no, not that".  Likely because they hope you will "settle" for something else
they are offering -- instead of abandoning the site in favor of another
vendor.

Some are better than others. I prefer those with filters that let you choose
maker, price range and whatever parameters really matter.

Yes. One *thinks* they have actually extracted those from the items
in their database (and not just a "filter veneer" applied to item descriptions)

Post by Don Y
My current strategy is to specify only and exactly what I know to be
a faithful description of the item (e.g., by reading it off the package!)
and, look through the results until I encounter the first item that
doesn't match all of my search terms -- figuring anything after this is
just wishful thinking on their part.

Some sites own search facilities are so dire (BBC for instance) that the only
way to find stuff is to go into google and use +BBC together with +keywords
(this may work for some badly indexed etail sites too).

The site then has to have been index-able by google/DDG/etc.
SWMBO continually complains that the "art supply" sites she
uses have atrocious search capabilities (coupled with completely
outdated inventory information)

Amazon seems to have got worse in this respect. Abe books better...

Abe is reasonable good -- but, they only have to deal with book titles.
Amazon perpetually tries to sneak completely unrelated items (often
from your prior search history) into the results ("Hey, remember
THIS? Maybe you'd like to buy it today??")

It can't be easy to design an *effective* search tool as one has to
"understand" what the search is looking for to overcome spelling
errors, different terminologies, etc.

*Or*, have the items in the DBMS previously "tagged" -- and well!

Post by Don Y
Has anyone else found a better scheme?  Quoting arguments?  etc.

In quotes preceded by + or - to include or exclude terms works on some.

[Don Y]

Post by Don Y

Some sites own search facilities are so dire (BBC for instance) that the only
way to find stuff is to go into google and use +BBC together with +keywords
(this may work for some badly indexed etail sites too).

The site then has to have been index-able by google/DDG/etc.
SWMBO continually complains that the "art supply" sites she
uses have atrocious search capabilities (coupled with completely
outdated inventory information)

Here, for example, a search intended to find "payne's gray" paint
assuming the searching party doesn't know how to properly spell it:
<https://www.jerrysartarama.com/search/go?w=pains%20grey>
HUNDREDS of results yet *none* on the first page are correct!

Assuming you KNOW how to spell it:
<https://www.jerrysartarama.com/search/go?w=paynes grey>
you still get a bunch of unrelated "grey" hits -- but, at least
a few likely results among the ~100 hits!