British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets

Post by Don Y
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.

The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

Grant Taylor

2024-06-09 01:29:28 UTC

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
I've seen pictures / video of.

--
Grant. . . .

bud--

2024-06-11 04:45:20 UTC

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
I've seen pictures / video of.

As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection. For power circuits a fuse available fault current rating is
of interest. Would be interesting what the rating for the tiny fuse is.
Maybe you can't get much fault current through the small wire

The logic for other cords may be that the wire is large enough that a
short will produce a high enough current to trip a breaker and large
enough to withstand the event.

Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits
and current about half here with correspondingly small cord wire so you
need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

Grant Taylor

2024-06-12 03:26:44 UTC

Post by bud--
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.

I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where I'm
using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the
breaker panel.

Post by bud--
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits
and current about half here with correspondingly small cord wire so you
need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how
you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V domestic
load in the U.S.A.

Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot
in a dual hot cord.

--
Grant. . . .

bud--

2024-06-16 02:51:43 UTC

Post by bud--
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where I'm
using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the
breaker panel.

Post by bud--
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how
you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V domestic
load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot
in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

Edward Rawde

2024-06-16 02:23:30 UTC

As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
have occurred.
I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.

It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.

Martin Brown

2024-06-16 06:39:51 UTC

As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

They still exist in older buildings. New wiring with that old code is
not allowed.

Post by Edward Rawde
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and
255vac depending on where you are and local loading. Our mains was
sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide
variations are much less common but single line rural feeds are higher
near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

Post by Edward Rawde
In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.

--
Martin Brown

Edward Rawde

2024-06-16 18:37:26 UTC

As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close
to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a
240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

They still exist in older buildings. New wiring with that old code is not allowed.

Post by Edward Rawde
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.

Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.

Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

Post by Edward Rawde
In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.

--
Martin Brown

KevinJ93

2024-06-16 16:44:27 UTC

Post by bud--
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
the breaker panel.

Post by bud--
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like
how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
hot in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

Sort of;

The UK is traditionally 240V along with many other UK influenced
countries such as Australia. While mainland Europe was 230V.

To achieve a common standard without any physical changes the tolerances
are asymmetric at 230V +10%/-6%. (As of 2022 the standard has now been
widened to be 230V +10%/-10%).

The UK is normally described as having 240V AC power.

kw

bud--

2024-06-16 22:22:56 UTC

Post by KevinJ93

Post by bud--
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and
need protection.

Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
the breaker panel.

Post by bud--
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like
how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
hot in a dual hot cord.

I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

Sort of;
The UK is traditionally 240V along with many other UK influenced
countries such as Australia. While mainland Europe was 230V.
To achieve a common standard without any physical changes the tolerances
are asymmetric at 230V +10%/-6%. (As of 2022 the standard has now been
widened to be 230V +10%/-10%).
The UK is normally described as having 240V AC power.
kw

230-240 is irrelevant. The point was UK is is
hot(live/whatever)-neutral, not hot-hot. And the fused plugs likely have
one fuse, not two. You don't want to fuse the neutral.

Martin Brown

2024-06-11 10:50:43 UTC

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
I've seen pictures / video of.

Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as
brutal in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty
similar size to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.

I have to say that 13A fused plugs at 3kW run quite warm to the touch as
well (at least on a continuous load). eg. Fan heater warming up a cold room.

Kettle is an intermittment load so seldom gets used for long enough for
the heat to really build up to noticeable levels. UK 13A plugs and
sockets have fairly recently been derated to 10A (2.4kW load). I suspect
with the phasing our of beryllium copper springs in their internals.

Belgacom stackable telcoms plugs look like they were designed for
3-phase mains for good measure. Almost same size as UK mains plugs!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapolar_plug

Their workmen have a sense of humour too. They installed my ISDN service
box on the dining room wall so that we could enjoy the LED light show...

Cable TV guy was much more helpful.

--
Martin Brown

Don Y

2024-06-11 14:30:07 UTC

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen
pictures / video of.

XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand
plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers
to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in
every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.

Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they
plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made. The blade material
may be flexible, the mount in the (molded!) plug may be flimsy so the blades
don't remain parallel, folks might cut off the earth conductor (to fit to a
two-prong outlet/extension cord) or use an adapter that does the same thing
(and fail to earth the required connection, XMAS lights can be found plugged
(two prong) into an adapter that is screwed into a light socket (! no earth),
etc.

OTOH, plugs for industrial use are very robust (because the manufacturers
don't want to have to replace them!). Ditto plugs used in hospital settings.

I have to say that 13A fused plugs at 3kW run quite warm to the touch as well
(at least on a continuous load). eg. Fan heater warming up a cold room.

I salvage power cords from discarded (clothes) irons. They tend to be made of
something that more closely approximates "rubber" (vs. thermoplastics), have
better conductors (to handle the higher load) and are longer (than, for
example, the cord on a toaster)

Kettle is an intermittment load so seldom gets used for long enough for the
heat to really build up to noticeable levels. UK 13A plugs and sockets have
fairly recently been derated to 10A (2.4kW load). I suspect with the phasing
our of beryllium copper springs in their internals.

A socket, here, is just a preformed piece of metal that tries to pinch
the blades of the plug. They are "stamped out" for pennies.

Worse, there are receptacles that can be wired by inserting a conductor
into a hole in the rear of the device (instead of putting it under and
around a screw) for a sort of "friction fit". As homeowners are
allowed to make such repairs/replacements, this is an often used
alternative (the screw connection is also present, just ignored!)

To make matters worse, loads will often be "daisy chained" through
such devices -- instead of a hard connection to pigtails feeding each
device in a box.

Belgacom stackable telcoms plugs look like they were designed for 3-phase mains
for good measure. Almost same size as UK mains plugs!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapolar_plug
Their workmen have a sense of humour too. They installed my ISDN service box on
the dining room wall so that we could enjoy the LED light show...

*On* the wall (as in "fastened")? Such equipment, here, would be freestanding;
set on the floor, on top of a TV, etc. but always "portable". The service
connection would be bound to a particular point but the customer side of
the connection would float.

Cable TV guy was much more helpful.

They are notoriously abysmal, here. Ditto with POTS installers. If you
request new service, you'll find a length of cable run ON THE SOIL to your
home's service connection. If you want three drops, they will route the
cable up and over the roof, and down the appropriate exterior walls to
enter through a hole that they will bore through your outer wall.

[No basements/attics as they aren't needed -- no snow load so flat roof
is relatively common and architecturally expected; no frost heave (frost
line is ~4 inches) so shallow footings (18") and service trenches (our
sewer line is just a few feet below ground)]

If you want a drop on an *interior* wall, then things get tricky!
The center void in the interior wall needs to be located on the
roof. A hole drilled through and a plastic conduit installed
(just to perforate the roof). The cable is fed through the conduit
and the perforation around the conduit sealed with a petroleum
product. Inside the house, the perforated wall void is located
and a hole drilled into the drywall to fetch the cable end.

The cable feed (on the soil) will stay there for months before someone
will come around to bury it (just a few inches under the soil for
cosmetic reasons. The thinking seems to be to get you *service* as
quickly as possible -- so they can start billing you for it -- and
worry about the niceties of the installation, later. (the cable
company uses an ORANGE cable that is very obvious as it lays on the
ground)

john larkin

2024-06-11 14:42:29 UTC

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:30:07 -0700, Don Y

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen
pictures / video of.

XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand
plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers
to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in
every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.
Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they
plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.

But are perfectly reliable.

Edward Rawde

2024-06-11 14:54:32 UTC

Post by john larkin
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:30:07 -0700, Don Y

Post by john larkin
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen
pictures / video of.

XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand
plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers
to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in
every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.
Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they
plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.

But are perfectly reliable.

Well of course they're perfectly reliable John.
It follows from the fact that anything made/used in the US can't possibly be less perfect than that which is used elsewhere.

Edward Rawde

2024-06-09 02:07:57 UTC

What year?

Post by Don Y
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

Post by Don Y
Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.

Don Y

2024-06-09 05:31:55 UTC

What year?

No idea. I don't know when particular shows were made or aired -- even
domestic (US) content!

Post by Don Y
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

These were "wall outlets" fixed in place. As the contact arrangement differs
from US (larger and different blade orientations), she didn't recognize them as
such.

IIRC (I wasn't watching the show but only called in for a "consult"),
there were two outlets "together", side by side, and then another
two outlets a fair distance away from those.

We have a small kitchen ("food prep area" as eating and dining areas are
elsewhere) but there are 7 duplex receptacles, there -- enough for 14
small appliances scattered along the countertop.

As most such appliances don't require a lot of power (think hand mixer,
blender, small TV, etc.), having the ability to power many from the
existing outlets is important. If a "power strip" resembles an
"extension cord", it's use would be discouraged -- hence the requirement
for outlets to be closer together on the countertops than elsewhere
in the house (where I think 12' is the norm).

Edward Rawde

2024-06-09 05:54:38 UTC

What year?

No idea. I don't know when particular shows were made or aired -- even
domestic (US) content!

Post by Don Y
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

They may have had switches too.
https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/why-are-uk-plugs-different

Post by Don Y
, and then another
two outlets a fair distance away from those.
We have a small kitchen ("food prep area" as eating and dining areas are
elsewhere) but there are 7 duplex receptacles, there -- enough for 14
small appliances scattered along the countertop.
As most such appliances don't require a lot of power (think hand mixer,
blender, small TV, etc.), having the ability to power many from the
existing outlets is important. If a "power strip" resembles an
"extension cord", it's use would be discouraged -- hence the requirement
for outlets to be closer together on the countertops than elsewhere
in the house (where I think 12' is the norm).

Cursitor Doom

2024-06-09 10:36:45 UTC

What year?

Quite. It's been the practice to steadily increase the number of fixed
wall power outlets over the years. The sitcom could easily be 30 or 40
years old, in which case, two or three worktop double outlets would be
about par for the course back then.

Liz Tuddenham

2024-06-09 06:57:17 UTC

We tend to skimp on the number of socket outlet plates in buildings, but
they are usually doubles, each with its own switch. There are generally
fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

We also have socket strips which plug into wall sockets and give four or
six outlets (normally unswitched) for lighter loads. This is helpful
for temporary arrangements where more sockets are needed in a hurry -
but tends to become permanent, leading to a maze of wires behind the
furniture. The strip is plugged into a normal wall socket with a fused
plug, so if it is overloaded, the fuse will blow and protect it.

Because the UK voltage is double the US voltage, the UK current is half
the US current for the same power, so our wiring tends to be lighter
gauge but we are much stricter on preventing electric shock.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Don Y

2024-06-09 10:31:56 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham

We tend to skimp on the number of socket outlet plates in buildings, but
they are usually doubles, each with its own switch.

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).

Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

Post by Liz Tuddenham
There are generally
fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
powered in a US kitchen.

Many appliances have very short power cords -- on the order of ~18-24".
So, an appliance tends to be plugged into a receptacle immediately
"behind" its place on the counter (even if not permanently stored there).

Long cords that could cross a sink or stove(top) are discouraged.
E.g., our toaster has an 18" cord as does my pizzelle iron. But,
the hand mixer and stand mixers probably have 4' chords (?).
A toaster *oven* would similarly have a short cord as would the
electric frying pans and wok.

Our ice cream maker probably has a 2 ft cord as would a rice cooker
or bread maker.

I intentionally arranged the receptacles serving the counter tops
such that it was obvious as to which outlets were on each branch
circuit and a duplex of each circuit would be available in each
"prep area".

Post by Liz Tuddenham
We also have socket strips which plug into wall sockets and give four or
six outlets (normally unswitched) for lighter loads. This is helpful
for temporary arrangements where more sockets are needed in a hurry -
but tends to become permanent, leading to a maze of wires behind the
furniture. The strip is plugged into a normal wall socket with a fused
plug, so if it is overloaded, the fuse will blow and protect it.

We have similar strips but I have never seen one deployed in a kitchen.
In general, the intent is for folks to use the in-wall mounted receptacles
without introducing other "extension cords". I think newer construction
deliberately increases the density of outlets in rooms as there are
more and more electric (electronic) devices encountered -- esp things
with wall warts (that consume an outlet without using a lot of power).

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Because the UK voltage is double the US voltage, the UK current is half
the US current for the same power, so our wiring tends to be lighter
gauge but we are much stricter on preventing electric shock.

The kitchen requires the use of GFCI-protected outlets (or branch circuits).
The same requirement doesn't extend through the rest of the house (excepting
the bathrooms/garage/outdoors), though.

AFCI-protected outlets are becoming more common in bedrooms but their
goal is to reduce risk of fire.

My motivation for moving everything to PoE PSE/PDs was to get rid of the
growing number of small power supplies/wall warts/bricks that are proliferating
in homes. E.g., you can purchase duplex receptacles with built-in 5V USB
power sources -- but, I don't think this increases outlet availability as
you still have to mate the USB cable to the receptacle which can interfere
with the plugging of a power cord.

Liz Tuddenham

2024-06-09 16:01:04 UTC

[...]

Electric cookers are invariably wired-in permanently with their own
dedicated spur from the fuse box or consumer unit. This is because UK
cookers have tended to be standalone units with (for intance) four top
rings, a grill and an oven. With everything switched on (such as
preparing Christmas dinner) they can draw over 12 kW.

They must have a two-pole isolating switch located close to, but not
directly above, them. Often these isolators also have a built-in single
socket which is handy for an electric kettle or similar appliance that
is used frequently and needs to be kept near the cooker.

In the last 20 years there has been a trend towards separate units in
different locations for the various function of a cooker, so some of the
lower-power units can be fed from a socket instead of being permanently
wired-in.

Refrigerators and microwave ovens will work off a 13 amp socket, so they
are rarely 'plumbed-in' ...but the socket may be located on the wall
directly behind them and inacessible unless the appliance is moved out
first.

Washing machines and dishwashers are plumbed-in for water and waste but
they are usually restricted to 3 kW and will therefore work off a 13 amp
socket. The arrangement of water hoses, taps and fittings close to a
240v power point is an uncomfortable one, but doesn't seem to cause much
trouble in practice.

I heard from a domestic appliance manufacturer with international sales
that the models for America, the UK and Europe differ in the design of
the casing. The American models are designed to make more noise, as
this gives the impression they are powerful. The UK models are quieter
to give the impression of efficiency and the European models are
super-quiet to give the impression of environmental friendliness.

I don't know how true that is, but it is an interesting view on national
psychology.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Don Y

2024-06-09 17:05:44 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
[...]

Yes, the stovetop on ours can dissipate 9KW (1200+1200+3600+3000+100W)
with another 4KW (max(3000,4200,1300)) in the oven proper. I assume
there are some smarts in the appliance to "schedule" the drive to individual
heating elements.

(I know some of the induction cooktops only plan on two elements being
active concurrently -- no doubt to save on drive electronics. But, I
don't know if they are smart enough to time-division multiplex the drive
so that all of the stovetop burners can be used at reduced duty cycle)

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They must have a two-pole isolating switch located close to, but not
directly above, them. Often these isolators also have a built-in single
socket which is handy for an electric kettle or similar appliance that
is used frequently and needs to be kept near the cooker.

Virtually all "circuit protection devices" are remotely located, here,
in the load center -- near where the main service enters the home.
(some kitchens may have a sub-panel to economize on wiring). But,
in general, appliances would have their own "power switches" as
part of their design -- assuming the notion of "OFF" makes sense.

To support "old work", one can purchase GFCI receptacles that can
provide that functionality at the outlet (instead of in the load
center). If located as the "first" (closest, electrically, to the
load center) outlet, the balance of the outlets on that branch
circuit can be protected as "loads" to that first unit.

I've been reviewing "electric kettles" to make boiling water
independant from the stove -- to reduce the wear and tear on the
(hard to replace) heating element in the stovetop AND to minimize
the chance of boilover (which necessitates a cleaning of the stovetop)
I also think this may reduce the amount of heat thrown into the
kitchen in the process.

Post by Liz Tuddenham
In the last 20 years there has been a trend towards separate units in
different locations for the various function of a cooker, so some of the
lower-power units can be fed from a socket instead of being permanently
wired-in.

One can purchase separate stovetops and ovens, here. But, the stovetop
tends to be the lion's share of the power consumption (see above).

You can buy a small "single burner" heating element (like to heat a
pot of water) but it would tend to be slower in doing so (e.g., I
boil water -- half a gallon at a time -- on the stove's 3600W element
set to HIGH).

Kitchens tend to attract "gadgets". But, experience will teach you not
to indulge those whims if you are concerned with where to site or store
them! E.g., my cavatelli maker hides in the garage for 350+ days out
of the year (cuz making cavatelli from scratch is too tedious to do
that often!). Ditto pizelle maker, pasta maker, cannoli tubes,
artichoke stands, cheese/meat grinder, bread pans, casserole dishes,
etc. WHEN you need them, they are invaluable. But, the rest of the
time, they are just "things" begging for a place to hide!

This can get tedious with some of the larger bits of kit (e.g., the stand
mixer is large and bulky and TOO OFTEN finds its way back into the
kitchen: "I'm getting too old for this shit!"

[Our kitchen (food prep area) is relatively small -- ~150 sq ft. So,
the storage space there is precious. And, is relatively easy to fill
when you consider flatware, kitchen utensils, pots/pans, foodstuffs,
etc. that you rely on EVERY day. Counterspace doubly so as you don't
want to sacrifice parts of it to storing larger devices if not going
to be used regularly. (We discarded our countertop toaster/convection
oven in favor of a stove with dual ovens just to reclaim that bit of
counterspace! When I bake cookies, I rely on the top of SWMBOs 42x54"
"map cabinet" for an extra 16 sq ft of cooling racks!)]

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Refrigerators and microwave ovens will work off a 13 amp socket, so they
are rarely 'plumbed-in' ...but the socket may be located on the wall
directly behind them and inacessible unless the appliance is moved out
first.

Refrigerators often have a dedicated branch circuit so the circuit
isn't accidentally tripped, putting those foodstuffs at risk.
None of our appliances require tools to "disconnect"; each
has some form of plug/socket arrangement -- though access to
it may be difficult (e.g., pull out the stove, refrigerator,
dishwasher to gain access)

Microwave ovens are just countertop appliances (in most cases; some
are wired in place but most are as replaceable as a toaster).
We moved our microwave onto a different branch circuit to increase
the margin available on the countertop circuits.

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Washing machines and dishwashers are plumbed-in for water and waste but
they are usually restricted to 3 kW and will therefore work off a 13 amp
socket. The arrangement of water hoses, taps and fittings close to a
240v power point is an uncomfortable one, but doesn't seem to cause much
trouble in practice.

Some homes will have "instant hot water" (a small, tankless electric water
heater that can bring small quantities of water to "boiling" nearly instantly.
This dispensed via an additional spigot on the sink). Others may have
a "real" hot water heater under each sink -- this to reduce the time to
having hot water at that location. E.g., it's probably a 40ft run UNDERGROUND
from our water heater to any of the loads it services.

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I heard from a domestic appliance manufacturer with international sales
that the models for America, the UK and Europe differ in the design of
the casing. The American models are designed to make more noise, as
this gives the impression they are powerful. The UK models are quieter
to give the impression of efficiency and the European models are
super-quiet to give the impression of environmental friendliness.
I don't know how true that is, but it is an interesting view on national
psychology.

This depends on the company's positioning. Some products (dishwashers,
washing machines) are advertised as "quiet". It is a means of
distinguishing between different product offerings within a manufacturer's
line. We, for example, have to rely on "alarms" for these devices
to tell us when they are "done". And, the alarms are hardly large enough
to be heard throughout the house -- being "one-time" events, if you don't
hear it when it alarms, you miss it completely: "Has my wash finished?"

Many other products intentionally -- and obviously -- attempt to deceive.
Witness "puffy" pickup trucks that are just lots of air behind their
sheetmetal skins. Garbage disposals tend to have a similarly sized motor
encased in a (hollow) plastic outer skin to make them APPEAR heftier. etc.

bud--

2024-06-11 04:10:58 UTC

Post by Don Y
Refrigerators often have a dedicated branch circuit so the circuit
isn't accidentally tripped, putting those foodstuffs at risk.
None of our appliances require tools to "disconnect"; each
has some form of plug/socket arrangement -- though access to
it may be difficult (e.g., pull out the stove, refrigerator,
dishwasher to gain access)

If I remember right, the NEC wants electric stoves to have a disconnect
visible from the stove. Could be a subpanel. It is common to have a plug
and receptacle where a drawer at the bottom of the stove can be removed
and you can reach through and pull the plug, which is then accessible.

TTman

2024-06-09 22:50:22 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the
wall. Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called
them surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure
6" wide x 3"high

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

Don Y

2024-06-10 00:41:36 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs). But, it would typically
not be found in most homes (kitchens). A "Plugmold" product provides
similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"

Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes
with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
(to protect the wiring). E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
and affords some protections against physical damage.

Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface
mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high

As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity,
cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)

You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

Martin Brown

2024-06-10 09:16:41 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered
walls so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the
wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the
skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.

There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs). But, it would typically
not be found in most homes (kitchens). A "Plugmold" product provides
similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"

Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or
in positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).

Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes
with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
(to protect the wiring). E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
and affords some protections against physical damage.

Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them
surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6"
wide x 3"high

You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much
further into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm
protruding was the least worst option and is still common. New build
with a lot of stud walling tends to have more modern flush mount.

You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains
socket out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The
plaster tends to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.

--
Martin Brown

Don Y

2024-06-10 17:29:31 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered walls
so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the wall.
Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the skirting board at
the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.

Here, most homes are stucco over masonry. So, any exterior walls are
*harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting
through the STONES in the mix).

Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
skin-coated drywall. Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry
with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.

[I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
interior temperature. It would also give me the opportunity to be
rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]

Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no
basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic). Running
new wiring means some amount of demo-work. Or, running the wiring
on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)

Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or in
positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).

Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface
mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high

You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much further
into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm protruding was the
least worst option and is still common. New build with a lot of stud walling
tends to have more modern flush mount.

But, presumably, for new work (or full remodels) that would have been baked
into the plan (?).

You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains socket
out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The plaster tends
to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.

So, you preserve an old "shell" and, when you modernize it (electric, plumbing,
gas, etc.) you skimp on that effort? As if it will be easier to do , later?
Wouldn't you PLAN on having to take on these tasks in order to make that
shell habitable, by modern standards?

bud--

2024-06-11 04:21:44 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with
plastered walls so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket
box into the wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran
behind the skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let
into that.

Here, most homes are stucco over masonry. So, any exterior walls are
*harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting
through the STONES in the mix).
Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
skin-coated drywall. Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry
with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.
[I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
interior temperature. It would also give me the opportunity to be
rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]
Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no
basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic). Running
new wiring means some amount of demo-work. Or, running the wiring
on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)

Brick and masonry sound like a major PITA. Here (Minneapolis) the vast
majority of houses are wood frame with basements. I think by the time
you put footings deep enough a basement is relatively cheap. Also
attics. I didn't know we had it so good.

TTman

2024-06-16 08:16:43 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick)
and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take power sockets, but
quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal
brickwork and external brickwork. Newer houses have internal stud walls
built from 4x2 and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy
to fit on that. By sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is
screwed by way of 2 screws.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

Don Y

2024-06-16 18:32:55 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

A brick home (here) would tend to have internal drywall walls (or plaster
on lath) furred out off of the exterior brick. The distance between
brick and drywall can vary (depending on quality of insulation).

Here, for example, the gap behind the drywall is about an inch (no insulation
other than a vapor barrier). So, outlets (and other junction boxes) in walls
that are along the outside of the building are notched into the brick *behind*
(outside of) the drywall.

Some lower quality builds (e.g., apartment houses) may just have block walls
that are painted (cosmetics) so the interior and exterior are separated
solely by the block wall.

Non-living spaces (garages) often have surface mounted junction boxes with
cables interconnecting them run through EMT (or, rigid conduit for some
commercial establishments). But, residences have minimal requirements
for electric service *in* the garage (and, power for a garage door opener
will be overhead so no need to deal with a block wall to install that wiring)

Here, for example, I have several retractable extension cords ("cord reel")
mounted on the ceiling with the receptacle ends just above head height.
So, you can bull a cord down to address your needs. This lets me have
a lot of outlets as well as freeing up the wall space for shelving (instead
of having to maintain access to a wall-mounted receptacle).

<Loading Image...

>

[Mine are rescues from some hospital equipment where the plug end
was the retractable portion -- roll the device up to the patient's
bedside, pull out plug and extend cord to reach a nearby outlet.
I simply swapped the functions of the fixed and extendable ends]

Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2
and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By
sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.

>

vs. a regular 2G box:

<Loading Image...

>

<https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-switch-and-junction-boxes-1824666>

The wiring (and wired "device" -- switch/outlet) is intended to be
entirely contained within the box. There are rules for the size of the box
required for the "stuff" that will be contained within (wire, clamps,
wirenuts, devices, etc.)

[I like metal boxes as you can remove/reinstall the devices without
fear of "stripping" the plastic into which they are fastened. I
also like oversized boxes so their contents aren't cramped/overstuffed.]

Edward Rawde

2024-06-16 18:46:29 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).

Post by Don Y
A brick home (here) would tend to have internal drywall walls (or plaster
on lath) furred out off of the exterior brick. The distance between
brick and drywall can vary (depending on quality of insulation).
Here, for example, the gap behind the drywall is about an inch (no insulation
other than a vapor barrier). So, outlets (and other junction boxes) in walls
that are along the outside of the building are notched into the brick *behind*
(outside of) the drywall.
Some lower quality builds (e.g., apartment houses) may just have block walls
that are painted (cosmetics) so the interior and exterior are separated
solely by the block wall.
Non-living spaces (garages) often have surface mounted junction boxes with
cables interconnecting them run through EMT (or, rigid conduit for some
commercial establishments). But, residences have minimal requirements
for electric service *in* the garage (and, power for a garage door opener
will be overhead so no need to deal with a block wall to install that wiring)
Here, for example, I have several retractable extension cords ("cord reel")
mounted on the ceiling with the receptacle ends just above head height.
So, you can bull a cord down to address your needs. This lets me have
a lot of outlets as well as freeing up the wall space for shelving (instead
of having to maintain access to a wall-mounted receptacle).
<https://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/16M8845-40.jpg>
[Mine are rescues from some hospital equipment where the plug end
was the retractable portion -- roll the device up to the patient's
bedside, pull out plug and extend cord to reach a nearby outlet.
I simply swapped the functions of the fixed and extendable ends]

Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2 and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By
sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.

What you seem to call a socket we would call a junction box (Jbox).
These come in different sizes/configurations/mountings and are
made of metal or plastic (older ones were made of bakelite). E.g.,
a box intended to be installed in a masonry wall is designed to be
<https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/9731e951-f1f7-4ca2-b055-b0d1c9145d1c/svn/raco-boxes-brackets-696-64_1000.jpg>
<https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/27083703-2b11-4b7b-ab61-34a32d80e2ee_1.d61079d669dce88b1fcd12da5222a77c.jpeg>
<https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-switch-and-junction-boxes-1824666>
The wiring (and wired "device" -- switch/outlet) is intended to be
entirely contained within the box. There are rules for the size of the box
required for the "stuff" that will be contained within (wire, clamps,
wirenuts, devices, etc.)
[I like metal boxes as you can remove/reinstall the devices without
fear of "stripping" the plastic into which they are fastened. I
also like oversized boxes so their contents aren't cramped/overstuffed.]

Don Y

2024-06-16 20:20:21 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?

How do you hang pictures?

Edward Rawde

2024-06-16 21:03:52 UTC

Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)

In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?

*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

Directly onto the brick surface?

Yes

Post by Don Y
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?

I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.

https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster

Post by Don Y
How do you hang pictures?

https://www.google.com/search?q=wall+plug (not the electrical kind)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug

That mentions Rawlplug which I can remember.

It's likely that plasterboard (drywall) is more popular now.

Liz Tuddenham

2024-06-16 21:44:35 UTC

[...]

Yes it's known as a cavity wall. Our house was like that, and there was
no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the
UK). The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers
(people who do the plastering).

Directly onto the brick surface?

Yes

Post by Don Y
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?

I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.
https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster

It does go directly onto the bricks but not as one single layer.

Usually a bonding layer of coarse plaster is applied first. Before it
is dry, to assist the bonding to the next layer, the surface is
scratched all over with a series of light marks, like criss-crosses,
made with the point of a trowel. After that first layer has set-off,
the second 'finishing' coat is applied. That is a much finer-grained
plaster and can be smoothed to a mirror finish by a skilled plasterer.

To assist in keeping the surface level, wooden battens are sometimes
tacked to the brickwork first, to give a series of parallel surfaces.
Once the bulk of the coarse plaster has been put on it can be levelled
by scraping with a straight-edge laid across the battens. Then the
battens are dug out and the channels which remain are filled with
plaster. Thin galvanised steel angle sections can be used on
outward-facing corners; these are provided with expanded metal edges
which key into the plaster, so they are left in place.

All this work has to be done at high speed because the freshly-mixed
plaster thickens-up quite quickly and becomes difficult to work. Its
workable life can be extended to a limited extent by adding a little
more water and 'beating it up', but that is not good practice.
.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Don Y

2024-06-16 21:49:13 UTC

Post by Don Y
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?

I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.
https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster

Hmmm, interesting. Here, a "real" plaster wall would be applied over lath
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath>

But, modern homes now use skim-coated drywall; the drywall has a kraft-paper
coating so the (thin) coat of plaster acts as a more pleasing (and less porous)
veneer.

Here (desert southwest), its hard to find folks who will do "smooth"; instead,
walls are textured (to hide the imperfections of taped joints, etc.)

Post by Don Y
How do you hang pictures?

https://www.google.com/search?q=wall+plug (not the electrical kind)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug
That mentions Rawlplug which I can remember.

Ah, an anchor. That suggests your plaster is relatively thick. By contrast,
a skim coat is a few mm thick -- though the drywall adds another half inch
behind that before you encounter a stud.

Still, the preferred means of hanging loads off walls is to find stud(s)
to carry the load. E.g., a large painting, a TV, etc.

[Growing up, our walls were plaster so you had to be 103% sure of the
desired placements of any hangings! No "unnecessary" holes in the plaster
that would require patching/repainting!]

Post by Edward Rawde
It's likely that plasterboard (drywall) is more popular now.

It is used for walls and ceilings, here. Relatively inexpensive to buy
and install ($1/sq ft).

Martin Brown

2024-06-09 16:11:33 UTC

That may be a side effect of stage sets not reflecting real life.

Historically you would have to go back to the 1960's or earlier to have
as few as two mains sockets in a UK kitchen. My kitchen has 4x2 outlets
above the bench and about 6 under it for fridge/freezer/washer/oven etc.

There certainly was a time when kitchens typically had only one high
power socket outlet on the (hard wired in) main cooker switch. But we
are talking of an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round
pin. BS546 round pin was the more recent and before that Wylex which was
-o- a regional abberration in the region where I grew up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

Post by Don Y
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.

That is no different in most of the UK. Sitcom sets don't always
represent real life. That said you can find older UK kitchens with too
few mains sockets. New build has to have a certain number. Those in
regions prone to flooding also have to have them above a certain height.
(historically most were on the skirting board)

It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs
charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

--
Martin Brown

Liz Tuddenham

2024-06-09 16:38:51 UTC

... But we
are talking of an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round
pin. BS546 round pin was the more recent and before that Wylex which was
-o- a regional abberration in the region where I grew up.

Wylex was a brilliant and economical system which combined all the best
features of a ring main, a spur system and stackable fused plugs to
avoid multiple power points or proliferated adaptors. It is a pity it
wasn't adopted as a British Standard instead of the clumsy system we now
have.

The different-width pin system, which prevented overloading low-current
circuits, has continued to be used in the fuse carriers of Wylex
consumer units until very recently.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Don Y

2024-06-09 17:33:15 UTC

Post by Martin Brown

That may be a side effect of stage sets not reflecting real life.

Possibly. Yet one would think the set designer would likely imagine
a real kitchen ("Gee, where am I going to put the oven?") in designing
the set. Overall *size* would seem to be the more variable issue.
Growing up, our kitchen was exactly as large as our living room (which
was considerably larger than any other room in the house). The
(converted apartment house) that served as my dormitory in college
had a kitchen that had just enough room for a single occupant
alongside sink, stove, refrigerator.

Post by Martin Brown
Historically you would have to go back to the 1960's or earlier to have as few
as two mains sockets in a UK kitchen. My kitchen has 4x2 outlets above the
bench and about 6 under it for fridge/freezer/washer/oven etc.

There are 14 outlets (7x2) in our small (150 sq ft) food prep area (we *eat*
in another area). This doesn't count the outlets (or branch circuits)
used for the oven/stove, refrigerator, dishwasher or garbage disposal.
Or, any outlets on the "unproductive" wall that bears no counters.

Post by Martin Brown
There certainly was a time when kitchens typically had only one high power
socket outlet on the (hard wired in) main cooker switch. But we are talking of
an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round pin. BS546 round pin
was the more recent and before that Wylex which was -o- a regional abberration
in the region where I grew up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

AFAICT, the minimum, here, would be two *circuits*. As each would terminate
in a duplex receptacle, I'm guessing that would translate to 4 outlets.
The actual number would be determined by (roughly) the distance along
the wall behind the countertops -- a duplex receptacle for each 4 ft of
linear span (so, a corner could have two sets of outlets each 2 ft from
the corner of the wall)

Post by Martin Brown
It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs
charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".

I use at least two outlets any time I bake anything and as many as 6 when
I'm "entertaining" (not counting the stovetop!). Note that most of those
loads can be small -- or intermittent -- but need to be powered constantly,
nonetheless.

The countertops have network drops available if someone wanted to
deploy a TV or laptop, there -- which would eat still more outlets.

Most of the places that I've lived, the kitchen is the social center of
the home so there's often a lot happening, there.

[We keep all of our rechargeables on a small table in the living room
where they are more easily accessed. They will soon be moved to an
antique radio that I'm refinishing to house our media tank (I don't
like SEEING technology products in a home)]

TTman

2024-06-09 22:43:44 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that
needs charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".

In the UK, it's common now to fit double plug sockets that have built in
dual USB outlets that can supply 2A per USB socket.
We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

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Don Y

2024-06-10 00:10:02 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs
charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".

In the UK, it's common now to fit double plug sockets that have built in dual
USB outlets that can supply 2A per USB socket.

Yes, you can buy duplex outlets that have USB-A and/or -C chargers built
in (I think 3.6A total). But, as our outlets are relatively small, this
makes for a crowded outlet if USB devices try to share that space with
a pair of mains powered devices:

<Loading Image...

We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires
the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small
plug-in charger)

And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
(do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
being charged?)

TTman

2024-06-16 08:19:43 UTC

Post by Don Y
<https://www.universalsecuritystore.com/store/images/products/large_images/usb2r2wh20a36-usi-electric-20-amp-usb-charger-duplex-wall-outlet-2.jpg>

Post by TTman
We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires
the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small
plug-in charger)
And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
(do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
being charged?)

UK regs now dictate the minimum height at which a power outlet can be
located.That is 450 mm ( In the very old days, they were screwed to
the skirting board!)

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Don Y

2024-06-16 10:26:07 UTC

Post by Don Y
<https://www.universalsecuritystore.com/store/images/products/large_images/usb2r2wh20a36-usi-electric-20-amp-usb-charger-duplex-wall-outlet-2.jpg>

Post by TTman
We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires
the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small
plug-in charger)
And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
(do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
being charged?)

UK regs now dictate the minimum height at which a power outlet can be
located.That is 450 mm ( In the very old days, they were screwed to the
skirting board!)

Outlets servicing the (kitchen) countertop have constraints on their
placement (e.g., nothing "facing upwards", most within 12" from the top
surface of the counter (anything 12" or more BELOW the counter is not
counted as satisfying the requirement for countertop servicing). And,
anything more than 18" above is similarly not counted. (The goal is
to be able to reach these outlets with the short power cords typically
encountered on "small appliances".)

Whereas outlets in the house tend to be (closer than) ~12 ft apart,
this is tightened to ~4 ft on counters (because small appliances
tend to have ~24" cords but "floor lamps" will have 6 ft cords)
They also need to be GFCI protected and support at least two 20A
circuits.

You can buy some that will "pop up" out of the counter surface to expose
receptacles.

<Loading Image...

>

<Loading Image...

>

(I don't like perforating the counter as spills are something that should be
of concern.)

You can also find outlets in the floor (something I also dislike!).

But, most other outlets are located about a foot above the floor
(the length of a carpenter's hammer makes a good measuring stick
for outlet placement).

Light switches are about 42 inches above floor level (where practical).

[Those above kitchen counters would be located similarly to receptacles]

Non-mains wiring doesn't need to follow the same sorts of wiring constraints.
E.g., you may find a length of RG6 (CATV or antenna feed) poking into a room
(from the outside of the residence!) through a hole bored in the wall without
benefit of a junction box or "wall plate". Ditto for telephone or network
cabling.

This might be "dressed up" with a wall plate -- but, that is not backed by
a real junction box (instead, the wall plate is affixed to the drywall
and just gives the appearance of being a "real" electric box).

[Of course, you can also have a real junction box -- plastic or metal -- to
support the wall plate but this adds cost/complexity.]

TTman

2024-06-09 22:38:28 UTC

We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.

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john larkin

2024-06-10 00:04:33 UTC

We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

Edward Rawde

2024-06-10 01:21:33 UTC

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Yes

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

Jeff Layman

2024-06-10 07:00:18 UTC

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
third to one quarter of the cost.

There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.

I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

--
Jeff

john larkin

2024-06-10 14:34:48 UTC

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine.

The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

Jeff Layman

2024-06-10 18:10:40 UTC

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine.

There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
last year:
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6"
That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
the calculation was:
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)

The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
cubic metre.

Post by john larkin
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
electric heating is 100% efficient!

Post by john larkin
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

--
Jeff

john larkin

2024-06-11 01:50:21 UTC

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine.

There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6"
That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)
The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
cubic metre.

Post by john larkin
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
electric heating is 100% efficient!

Unless you run it through a heat pump, which makes it 300% efficient.

Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

Bask in the cold dark.

TTman

2024-06-16 08:34:03 UTC

Post by Jeff Layman
There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6"
That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)
The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
cubic metre.

Post by john larkin
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
electric heating is 100% efficient!

Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

I don't think the gas ban will ever happen... At least, not until the UK
becomes 100% totally self sufficient in green/renewable i.e.
solar/wind/nuclear.It's a bit ilke the electric car situation.. It will
be 50+ years before there are no IC cars. Jeff- Have you considered
switching to Octopus Energy and get on their tracker/Agile tariffs? I'm
from the UK..

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Jeff Layman

2024-06-16 12:37:15 UTC

Post by john larkin
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
electric heating is 100% efficient!

Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

It will happen, but not for years (unless The Greens get in, when we'll
all be freezing in the dark...).

The Agile tariff is of no interest (no EV, solar, battery). Tracker is
of more relevance, but I'm not a smart meter advocate, nor do I pay
anything by DD (I think it might be possible to pay by non-DD with
Octopus's agreement as per their T&C, but I'm not sure). I'll probably
revisit the subject in a year or so.

--
Jeff

TTman

2024-06-16 13:02:32 UTC

Post by TTman
I don't think the gas ban will ever happen... At least, not until the UK
becomes 100% totally self sufficient in green/renewable i.e.
solar/wind/nuclear.It's a bit ilke the electric car situation.. It will
be 50+ years before there are no IC cars. Jeff- Have you considered
switching to Octopus Energy and get on their tracker/Agile tariffs? I'm
from the UK..

It will happen, but not for years (unless The Greens get in, when we'll
all be freezing in the dark...).
The Agile tariff is of no interest (no EV, solar, battery). Tracker is
of more relevance, but I'm not a smart meter advocate, nor do I pay
anything by DD (I think it might be possible to pay by non-DD with
Octopus's agreement as per their T&C, but I'm not sure). I'll probably
revisit the subject in a year or so.

They have 'variable DD' - they take what you owe. Not sure if they do
'pay on bill'. I've just left Agile ( winter tariff) and switched to
Flux . I'm a big advocate of smart meters and run a FB group for
disgruntled EDF users. My smart meter is great- dual band so HAN comms
is 868 MHz and great range.Current annual savings ( against SVT) is
~£1500 . 5.3 kWp west facing /3.68 Inverter/9.5 kW battery

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KevinJ93

2024-06-11 01:16:59 UTC

<....>

Post by Jeff Layman
How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine.

The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

A single BTU is equivalent to 1054J or about 0.293 Wh.

They are normally billed in groups of 100,000 BTUs called a Therm
equivalent to 29.3kWh.

Current rates for gas in the SF Bay area are about $2/Therm.

This is equivalent to ~7c/kWh, electricity is 40-60c/kWh depending upon
time of day etc.

Even accounting for 10-30% loss in gas appliances gas is cheaper than
using a heat pump with a COP of ~3-4 for space and water heating.

kw

Post by john larkin
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

Liz Tuddenham

2024-06-12 10:03:54 UTC

KevinJ93 <***@whitedigs.com> wrote:

[...]

Post by KevinJ93
The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

Be careful when comparing historic matrial. A BTU was Board of Trade
Unit which was equivalent to a kilowatt-hour, the BThU was the British
Thermal Unit.

When BTUs were phased out in favour of kWh, the redundant abbreviation
'BTU" was repurposed as an alternative to "BThU". So depending on when
it was written, "1 BTU" could mean either 1 kWh or 1 BthU.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

john larkin

2024-06-12 15:50:24 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
[...]

Post by KevinJ93
The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

Be careful when comparing historic matrial. A BTU was Board of Trade
Unit which was equivalent to a kilowatt-hour, the BThU was the British
Thermal Unit.
When BTUs were phased out in favour of kWh, the redundant abbreviation
'BTU" was repurposed as an alternative to "BThU". So depending on when
it was written, "1 BTU" could mean either 1 kWh or 1 BthU.

The classic US units were fun. A "barrel" might be different volumes
or masses, depending on what stuff you were selling.

I once calibrated a hot-water thermal metering system for a giant
building in Moscow, that uses the city hot-water system. I guessed
that a "barrel" was 42 gallons from memory, and calibrated the
flowmeter and wrote it up. The authorities accepted that and I guess
the hotel is still paying the city based on my math. [1]

How much is a "pinch" of tarragon? Probably not enough.

Popular units of measurement here are "football fields" and "Olympic
swimming pools."

[1] Most buildings in Moscow were unmetered. When a room got too hot
in the winter, people just opened a window.

Brian Gregory

2024-06-16 20:24:24 UTC

Post by Jeff Layman
From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.

Outside the UK you'll probably get redirected to:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58090533

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Martin Brown

2024-06-10 09:35:11 UTC

Post by john larkin
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Mostly gas 74% at least in the cities although it is slowly changing to
air source heat pumps (which is a stupid idea in a country where the
coldest months typically have near 100% humidity and hover around 0C).
They ice up with monotonous regularity. Ground source heat pumps are a
slightly better bet.

See for example the census data:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9838/#:~:text=Census%202021%20found%20that%2073.8,no%20central%20heating%20and%201.0%25

Where I live gas is not an option but about 80% of the population are on
the national gas grid (and it is by far the cheapest heating option).
Not all of them use it though. Dual fuel from the same supplier gets you
a discount (which isn't available if there is no gas supply).

Snag is consumer electricity prices are linked to the most expensive way
of making the last bit of electricity needed to satisfy demand which has
resulted in insane price increases since the Ukraine invasion. So bad
that the government has had to intervene with price caps.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

For my house comparatively little despite the large number of gadgets my
base load is only about 100W continuous. We don't have gas so are on
solid fuel (wood/coal) and oil CH which spiked after Ukraine. But OTOH
they were practically giving it away when Covid closed down air travel!
28s kerosene and aviation fuel are almost interchangeable.

--
Martin Brown

john larkin

2024-06-10 14:54:30 UTC

On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 10:35:11 +0100, Martin Brown

Post by Martin Brown

Post by john larkin
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

Mostly gas 74% at least in the cities although it is slowly changing to
air source heat pumps (which is a stupid idea in a country where the
coldest months typically have near 100% humidity and hover around 0C).
They ice up with monotonous regularity. Ground source heat pumps are a
slightly better bet.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9838/#:~:text=Census%202021%20found%20that%2073.8,no%20central%20heating%20and%201.0%25
Where I live gas is not an option but about 80% of the population are on
the national gas grid (and it is by far the cheapest heating option).
Not all of them use it though. Dual fuel from the same supplier gets you
a discount (which isn't available if there is no gas supply).
Snag is consumer electricity prices are linked to the most expensive way
of making the last bit of electricity needed to satisfy demand which has
resulted in insane price increases since the Ukraine invasion. So bad
that the government has had to intervene with price caps.

Post by john larkin
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

Wood and coal are nasty, with lots worse by-products than CO2. We
theoretically outlaw burning wood in San Francisco when weather
conditions are wrong, but that's not enforced.

It's cold here so we leave the gas heat on all the time. When it's
cold and foggy we can hit as much as $300 a month for gas+electricity,
which are on the same bill. People with air conditioning can pay much
more, but a/c makes life possible in many parts of the USA.

TTman

2024-06-16 08:26:38 UTC

Post by TTman
depending.

Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

Many houses have natural gas central heating to heat water filled
radiators. Some apartments/ blocks of flats usually have electric night
storage radiators. Current 'normal' electric costs ~23p/kWh. My 4 bed
detached house ( we're retired) used to use 270 kWh/month. total cost
then was around £90/month including 5% vat. We also have to pay a
'standing charge' of 60p /day ( robbery charge). I now have solar +
9.5kW battery . Summer months I'm a net exporter. Winter my bills are
tiny. I import cheap overnight ( somtimes I get paid to import!)
~10p/kWh and runn off the battery all day . On a sunny day, I import
less the following morning.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

Don Y

2024-06-16 20:17:50 UTC

Our regular tariff has DELIVERED electricity running about 15c/KWHr. The
electrons cost about 4c but add another 10c to get them to your home!

There are additional taxes, surcharges, "meter" charge (for the "privilege"
of being able to receive electricity), etc. Last month's 640KWHr cost us
$130. This will likely climb to ~1500KWHr this month and for the next
few months (air conditioning is a HUGE electrical load -- it drops to 80F
around midnight and is up above that shortly after sunrise)

But, we also are not particularly good at conserving energy; I bake a
couple of times each week, all of our meals are hot, a gallon of hot water
for tea each day, a 16cu ft freezer (in the garage! :< ) and 20 cu ft
refrigerator, at least one TV on most of the day, etc.

[I abhor *cooking* with gas so gas is just DHW and GFA.]

Plus, all of the "vampire" loads -- the cordless phones, cell phones,
ereaders and tablets, TVs and HiFis, microwave oven, stove, refrigerator,
dishwasher, washer, dryer, a dozen UPSs, 15 monitors, at least three
computers in use (plus others "sleeping"), modem, router, amplified
speakers, DVR, media tank, garage door opener, clocks, printers, scanners,
etc. Nothing has a "hard" power switch, anymore (even the damn fans have
"remotes"!).

retired) used to use 270 kWh/month. total cost then was around £90/month
including 5% vat. We also have to pay a 'standing charge' of 60p /day ( robbery

Our "meter charge" is $15/mo. There are 7 different "taxes".

charge). I now have solar + 9.5kW battery . Summer months I'm a net exporter.
Winter my bills are tiny. I import cheap overnight ( somtimes I get paid to
import!) ~10p/kWh and runn off the battery all day . On a sunny day, I import
less the following morning.

Here, the load needs to be addressed more than the supply. E.g., the ACbrrr
is ~14KW and runs at ~30% duty cycle. As floor plans here tend to be "open",
there is no practical way to reduce the cooling load. With minisplits and
intelligent controls, we could conceivably arrange to shift the active load
to different rooms to keep our peak load below whatever an array could
deliver (most seem to be 6KW to 10KW arrays and, obviously, don't help with
your late day/overnight cooling loads!)

But, minisplits are so "industrial" looking. When someone comes up with
a way to retrofit the evaporators to the individual *vents* (running the
plumbing through the existing ducts), then they will see more residential use
(beyond just in garages).

Any surplus that you deliver to the grid would be compensated at 5c/KWHr
(the value of the electrons!) and purchased BACK from them at ~20c (taxes
and fees) when the sun has set.

I.e., every day you would consume all of your stored charge plus more!

(Our two "all electric" neighbors see $300+ monthly bills every month -- and
complain about how cold their houses are (heat pumps) in the MILD winter)

Don Y

2024-06-10 01:19:45 UTC

We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each

Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)

Here, we have 9 individual Jboxes to service the countertops:
- 5 1G boxes with 20A duplex receptacles
- 2 1G boxes with "communications" wiring
- 1 4G box to support a 20A duplex plus switches for garbage disposal, oversink
lighting and overhead lighting
- 1 2G box to support 20A duplex plus a dual (half-height) switch to power
the under cabinet lighting circuits

*Below* the level of the counter are the outlets for the stove/oven, garbage
disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator -- with the microwave oven off on
it's own. These aren't intended to require normal access.

socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can supply ( in
miniature contact breaker).

Here, a 20A circuit provides 2400W to the total load on that branch circuit
(though each receptacle can individually support a 20A load; loads exceeding
15A have a different plug configuration making them physically incompatible
with the normal 15A receptacles found in other rooms).

The branch circuit is protected in the load center with a 20A circuit
breaker (GFCIs in our case to eliminate the need to install GFCI receptacles
in the kitchen)

All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format
to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet.

Presumably, this means there is no "start" or "end" of the branch circuit?
So, no way to retrofit a GFCI receptacle to the "start" of the string and
provide that protection to the remainder of the string?

A kettle will have a typical
power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other main appliances - dish

The electric kettles I've looked at tend to be in the 1500W range
(I want to stop relying on the 3600W burner in the stovetop to
boil water; I'm willing to settle for longer boil times or
smaller boil volumes to do so)

washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier own separate supplies. Ovens

Washer and dryer would typically be in some other "laundry" area
(with its own requirements). Likewise for domestic water heater.
Big heat loads here are often powered with natural gas. An
"all electric" house is seen as a bit of a curse though I've
a friend who has made such a switch. (We rely on gas for heat
and domestic hot water, prefering electric for cooking)

[Two neighbors have such homes -- the gas supply was deliberately not
brought to their residences as part of some "development plan" (?).
Their electric bills tend to be ~$300/month, even in the low demand
(winter) months. Adding gas to their homes would require excavating the
street and their front yards (actually, this could be done with a
drill but still costly!)]

will be wired using 6mm cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged
itto a wall socket in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or
13A fuses depending.

A problem with US wiring is that it relies heavily on protection devices
at the load center. E.g., my pizzelle iron (750W?) is just a plug,
power cord and some nichrome wire. The "power indicator" is actually
the glow of the nichrome wire as seen through a glass window! :<

But, the adoption of AFCIs is intended to help address "failing" products
on the assumption that they will piss and spit AS they are failing.

Don Y

2024-06-10 01:24:54 UTC

We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each

Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)

You can purchase outlets that fit *into* the counter surface (and "pop-up"
when needed; an up-facing outlet is prohibited). You can also locate
outlets below the counter (within ~12" vertically) as long as they aren't
recessed more than ~6".

There are other rules for islands and peninsulas to ensure no extension
cords are used to bring power to workspaces that might need it (anything
more than 12" wide)

bud--

2024-06-11 03:59:19 UTC

Post by Don Y
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few
receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.

We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each

Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)
- 5 1G boxes with 20A duplex receptacles
- 2 1G boxes with "communications" wiring
- 1 4G box to support a 20A duplex plus switches for garbage disposal, oversink
lighting and overhead lighting
- 1 2G box to support 20A duplex plus a dual (half-height) switch to power
the under cabinet lighting circuits
*Below* the level of the counter are the outlets for the stove/oven, garbage
disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator -- with the microwave oven off on
it's own. These aren't intended to require normal access.

socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
will be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker).

Here, a 20A circuit provides 2400W to the total load on that branch circuit
(though each receptacle can individually support a 20A load; loads exceeding
15A have a different plug configuration making them physically incompatible
with the normal 15A receptacles found in other rooms).
The branch circuit is protected in the load center with a 20A circuit
breaker (GFCIs in our case to eliminate the need to install GFCI receptacles
in the kitchen)

In my kid's kitchen the counter top receptacles mostly are 2 duplex
receptacles together with the left one on one circuit and right one on
the other. Two of the receptacles are GFCI and protect the rest of the
receptacles downstream. GFCI trips are local and easily reset. GFCI
receptacle with local reset is often convenient elsewhere. GFCI
receptacles are mass produced and, last I looked, cheaper than GFCI breakers

All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive
volt drops at any outlet.

My understanding of ring is the circuit starts in the "consumer unit",
wanders around the dwelling, and returns to the consumer unit where it
is protected in parallel with the start. It violates 2 rules on
paralleling in the NEC. Wire for a 30A ring is rated less than 30A.

From what I have seen, recepacle-plug combinations don't expose live
prongs that make the receptacles much deeper than ours.