Discussion:
Intel
(too old to reply)
John Larkin
2024-08-03 19:32:23 UTC
Permalink
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a

Looks like they wrecked Altera.
Joe Gwinn
2024-08-03 21:18:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.

Joe Gwinn
John Larkin
2024-08-03 21:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
Phil Hobbs
2024-08-03 21:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
AMD has been doing it pretty well, for awhile. The X86_64 architecture
was theirs, for instance--Intel was still pushing Itanium, alias Itanic.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
Gerhard Hoffmann
2024-08-03 22:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
Altera was founded with Intel money, and the Intel Eprom process.
Remember the EP300?
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
In the last 20 years, Intel processors had nothing to do with the x86
architecture, except that they could accept x86 code after reset.
Inside, they are a bunch of RISCs, and there is no EAX register but
some 100s of renaming registers that all could take the role of EAX,
in case of speculative execution even some of them at the same time.
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
There haven't been a lot of bugs in the last 40 years. If someone gave
up b/c of bugs, it was NS with the 32032 or Motorola with the 68K.
That's what you get with addressing modes like multiple-memory-indirect
where instructions may never terminate because of unlimited page faults
for a single instruction.

All the bugs? Surely you'll mention the fdiv? Has floating point
division anything to do with x86 architecture? When I think of bugs,
I immediately remember the AM9511 floating point coprocessor.
It was next to impossible to get a data sheet and the AM9511 version
for it, and every month a different combination with different bugs.
AMD has been doing it pretty well, for awhile.  The X86_64 architecture
was theirs, for instance--Intel was still pushing Itanium, alias Itanic.
... which really was HP's brainchild.
I wonder how the iapx432 would perform with current cache technology.
Cheers
Gerhard
Dimiter_Popoff
2024-08-04 21:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
Altera was founded with Intel money, and the Intel Eprom process.
Remember the EP300?
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
In the last 20 years, Intel processors had nothing to do with the x86
architecture, except that they could accept x86 code after reset.
Inside, they are a bunch of RISCs, and there is no EAX register but
some 100s of renaming registers that all could take the role of EAX,
in case of speculative execution even some of them at the same time.
So do they have any instruction set available to the programmer other
than the x86 one or is all this just an emulation of x86 code.
Is there a programming model to be seen in some public document
describing all those many registers. Last time I (vaguely) checked
all I could see were the x86 registers, just made longer - which
brings with itself all the limitations the x86 architecture has
always had, just going over them faster by faster silicon.
Don Y
2024-08-05 02:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimiter_Popoff
Post by Gerhard Hoffmann
In the last 20 years, Intel processors had nothing to do with the x86
architecture, except that they could accept x86 code after reset.
Inside, they are a bunch of RISCs, and there is no EAX register but
some 100s of renaming registers that all could take the role of EAX,
in case of speculative execution even some of them at the same time.
So do they have any instruction set available to the programmer other
than the x86 one or is all this just an emulation of x86 code.
That would be considered "trade secret" as revealing anything of their
internal implementation would give others a leg up in that market.
Post by Dimiter_Popoff
Is there a programming model to be seen in some public document
describing all those many registers. Last time I (vaguely) checked
all I could see were the x86 registers, just made longer - which
brings with itself all the limitations the x86 architecture has
always had, just going over them faster by faster silicon.
There is no value to their customer base to be able to modify the
microcode that emulates the x86 architecture. Exposing that
programming model would then require *supporting* it (toolchain).
And, force them to preserve it, in addition to the x86 interface.

I suspect there are some details of the internals that might be
made available (under NDA) to third-party tool vendors (debuggers,
ICE, etc.) but that would likely be a very privileged relationship
(and, Intel would likely have contract language that effectively caused
any violation of the NDA to result in forfeiture of the offending
company, just based on size/assets!)
bitrex
2024-08-05 04:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
This poor bugger:

<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
John Larkin
2024-08-05 15:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
bitrex
2024-08-05 16:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
John Larkin
2024-08-05 16:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.

Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.

Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.

https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-06 05:54:51 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.
Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.
Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Markets..
My Intel core I5 laptop is still much much faster than my ARM based Raspberry Pi4 8 GB
And even my old AMD 64 PCs are...

I do not realy like ARM architecture.

But things are changing" what's his name? just sold large parts of his Apple stock:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/03/berkshire-hathaway-warren-buffett-sells-off-apple-increases-cash-holdings


Writing bloat to sell more hardware is a silly game.
As silly as 'very old saying Archie? 'Do not fix it if it is not broken'
We had, at one time, a few guys doing 'preventive maintenance'
on electronic equipment in the studio.
Well some interesting fault finding required after that, my boss got stuck...
I fixed it in 10 minutes the next morning, the 'preventive maintenace' group had not properly tighened a PL259 connector, ground screen was loose
interference impulses everywhere (was fast tacho pulse cable).

US financial system, dollar value, I think the old plan was to inflate the debt away.
But grabbing Iranian oil could pay some US debt.
Follow the money
So have that notanyyahoo provoke as much war as possible to create a reason to invade Iran, sell more weapons,
even maybe go as far as to get Russia on line give it YouCrane
Its all games US plays.
This time it will not work, too many real nukes everywhere, US is so small, take a globe and look the ratio of noise the US
makes versus the rest of the world. compared to surface area..
Russia China Pakistan India all have their nukes... Probably some more N Korea...
Invade Iran for some silly lie, like George Double You Booooooos did for weapons of mass destruction that did not really exist in Iraq
more war crmes, Japan nuking, Afganistan, Korea, just a weapon manufacturer tha tUS is, and it even kills its own peole with thsoe all the time.
Criminal, genocide, no matter what.
And crap weapons it makes, there are people here protesting against the horrible noise the F35 makes that we bougt (our CIA controlled polly ticksians did)
What a piece of shit that F35
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Bill Sloman
2024-08-06 14:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.

Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-06 14:22:51 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
quote:
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"

What ASML does is likely copied in a short while
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.

As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.

Competing against India is a no-go for that US.

Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...

Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes
John Larkin
2024-08-06 15:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while
The Japanese tried EUV and gave up. They seem to be doing OK in DUV.

Incidentally, Cymer in San Diego developed the first practical EUV
lithography, and ASML bought it.
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-07 06:30:51 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Aug 2024 08:50:33 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while
The Japanese tried EUV and gave up. They seem to be doing OK in DUV.
Incidentally, Cymer in San Diego developed the first practical EUV
lithography, and ASML bought it.
I dunno who invented the wheel but Cymer used it....
The Chinese invented the gunpowder and US uses it...
AFAIK ASML has no export limit enforced by the US for India?
Seems a good market to me!
a***@spenarnc.xs4all.nl
2024-08-16 11:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2
billion semiconductor plant,
Post by Jan Panteltje
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in
India’s northeast,
Post by Jan Panteltje
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed
technologies,
Post by Jan Panteltje
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to
13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
Post by Jan Panteltje
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while
The Japanese tried EUV and gave up. They seem to be doing OK in DUV.
Incidentally, Cymer in San Diego developed the first practical EUV
lithography, and ASML bought it.
I think EUV is too complicated and there is no path forward from
there. If a new technique is invented, that is probably by the Chinese.
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -
Bill Sloman
2024-08-17 16:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@spenarnc.xs4all.nl
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by a***@spenarnc.xs4all.nl
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
It's not easy to do. or easy to copy.
Post by a***@spenarnc.xs4all.nl
Post by John Larkin
The Japanese tried EUV and gave up. They seem to be doing OK in DUV.
Incidentally, Cymer in San Diego developed the first practical EUV
lithography, and ASML bought it.
I think EUV is too complicated and there is no path forward from
there. If a new technique is invented, that is probably by the Chinese.
There's nothing particularly complicated about generating extreme
ultraviolet light.

It's hard to use it to expose photo-resists on silicon, because the
resolution you need and get is lot finer than you can get with longer
wavelengths. This makes life difficult in all sorts of ways, so it takes
a lot of development, which costs a lot of money, but it makes a lot of
money when it works.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Bill Sloman
2024-08-07 02:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-07 06:26:23 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
Look up this:
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm

The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing climate
ELse mass migration and mass death of huming-beans is pre-programmmed.
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
In the end we will have to reach for other planets, give up on wasting time circling the earth.

Maybe some will adapt... people adapt to high altitude, to cold (eskimos)...
In the end life is everywhere in the universe and this species may well come to an end
All is connected though...
Just one big organism this universe is?
And what is beyond, we know nothing, like an ant in the garden has no clue of the architects that designed and build the houses,
the roads that were planned and build, the ships.. but use those to spread around the world,
some dangerous species, like humming-beans spread that way too.
Post by Bill Sloman
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Bill Sloman
2024-08-07 07:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Not that the Netherlands can claim that. Jan certainly can't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
Don't bother. It's totally irrelevant to the climate change we are now
seeing. It does have something to do to with Milankovich cycles, but

https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/why-milankovitch-orbital-cycles-cant-explain-earths-current-warming/
Post by Jan Panteltje
The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
Or so Jan likes to think - or rather that's what the fossil carbon
extraction industry want's him to think.
Post by Jan Panteltje
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing climate
Else mass migration and mass death of human beings is pre-programmmed.
It isn't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
And pigs might fly.
Post by Jan Panteltje
In the end we will have to reach for other planets, give up on wasting time circling the earth.
Maybe some will adapt... people adapt to high altitude, to cold (eskimos)...
In the end life is everywhere in the universe and this species may well come to an end
All is connected though...
Just one big organism this universe is?
And what is beyond, we know nothing, like an ant in the garden has no clue of the architects that designed and build the houses,
the roads that were planned and build, the ships.. but use those to spread around the world,
some dangerous species, like humming-beans spread that way too.
Jan is speaking for himself here. He really doesn't have a clue.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-07 11:32:51 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:40:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Not that the Netherlands can claim that. Jan certainly can't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
Don't bother. It's totally irrelevant to the climate change we are now
seeing. It does have something to do to with Milankovich cycles, but
https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/why-milankovitch-orbital-cycles-cant-explain-earths-current-warming/
There is a lot NASA cannot explain as it is a pawn in the game of a big industry and locked in dumbness by
dancing to the tune of poly-ticsians some of which are religious biased to the point of poining out that earth was created 4000 years ago,
species Kamala is derived for Adam who did it with Eve, Pi is 4 and what not..
When life is detected on Mars by their own experiment they deny it so as to keep funding by them religious fanatoc freaks going:
http://www.gillevin.com/

A little while ago (in cosmic terms) there was the little ice age.
There is a lot to read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

So fast variations in temperatuie over short times (several hundred years) and the fact we are now in a solar sunspot maximum
helps sell the Al Gore crap.
Generations are now brought up who glue themselves to the ground blocking normal activity that HELPS
us cope with life, they claim to 'save the earth' In fact they are too dumb to even know how to connect a light bulb.
All should be sent to a re-eductation camp as the Gore crap and CO2 crap polluted their brains and yours.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
Or so Jan likes to think - or rather that's what the fossil carbon
extraction industry want's him to think.
Post by Jan Panteltje
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing
climate
Else mass migration and mass death of human beings is pre-programmmed.
It isn't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
And pigs might fly
Easy
book a flight for those, AS LONG AS AIRPLANES ARE STILL ALLOWED BY THOSE CLIMATE IDIOTS
now they already screw up flights by glueing themselves to the runways..
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
In the end we will have to reach for other planets, give up on wasting time circling the earth.
Maybe some will adapt... people adapt to high altitude, to cold (eskimos)...
In the end life is everywhere in the universe and this species may well come to an end
All is connected though...
Just one big organism this universe is?
And what is beyond, we know nothing, like an ant in the garden has no clue of the architects that designed and build the
houses,
the roads that were planned and build, the ships.. but use those to spread around the world,
some dangerous species, like humming-beans spread that way too.
Bill Sloman
2024-08-07 13:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:40:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Not that the Netherlands can claim that. Jan certainly can't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
Don't bother. It's totally irrelevant to the climate change we are now
seeing. It does have something to do to with Milankovich cycles, but
https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/why-milankovitch-orbital-cycles-cant-explain-earths-current-warming/
There is a lot NASA cannot explain as it is a pawn in the game of a big industry and locked in dumbness by
dancing to the tune of poly-ticsians some of which are religious biased to the point of poining out that earth was created 4000 years ago,
species Kamala is derived for Adam who did it with Eve, Pi is 4 and what not..
http://www.gillevin.com/
A little while ago (in cosmic terms) there was the little ice age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
So fast variations in temperature over short times (several hundred years) and the fact we are now in a solar sunspot maximum
helps sell the Al Gore crap.
Twaddle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum

It doesn't seem to have any effect on the earth's climate. The little
ice age was pretty much confined to the north Atlantic region, so it has
nothing to do with global warming or cooling - despite the crap you try
to peddle.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Generations are now brought up who glue themselves to the ground blocking normal activity that HELPS
us cope with life, they claim to 'save the earth' In fact they are too dumb to even know how to connect a light bulb.
All should be sent to a re-eductation camp as the Gore crap and CO2 crap polluted their brains and yours.
Somebody who believes what he reads in the Daily Telegraph and Russia
Today hasn't got a brain to pollute. You are as silly as Cursitor Doom.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
Or so Jan likes to think - or rather that's what the fossil carbon
extraction industry want's him to think.
Post by Jan Panteltje
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing
climate
Else mass migration and mass death of human beings is pre-programmmed.
It isn't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
And pigs might fly
Easy
book a flight for those, AS LONG AS AIRPLANES ARE STILL ALLOWED BY THOSE CLIMATE IDIOTS
now they already screw up flights by glueing themselves to the runways..
Really? Where? You do invent a lot of nonsense.

<snip>
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-07 14:59:22 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 23:28:00 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:40:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Not that the Netherlands can claim that. Jan certainly can't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
Don't bother. It's totally irrelevant to the climate change we are now
seeing. It does have something to do to with Milankovich cycles, but
i
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/why-milankovitch-orbital-cycles-cant-explain-earths-current-warming/
There is a lot NASA cannot explain as it is a pawn in the game of a big industry and locked in dumbness by
dancing to the tune of poly-ticsians some of which are religious biased to the point of poining out that earth was created
4000 years ago,
species Kamala is derived for Adam who did it with Eve, Pi is 4 and what not..
When life is detected on Mars by their own experiment they deny it so as to keep funding by them religious fanatoc freaks
http://www.gillevin.com/
A little while ago (in cosmic terms) there was the little ice age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
So fast variations in temperature over short times (several hundred years) and the fact we are now in a solar sunspot maximum
helps sell the Al Gore crap.
Twaddle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum
It doesn't seem to have any effect on the earth's climate. The little
ice age was pretty much confined to the north Atlantic region, so it has
nothing to do with global warming or cooling - despite the crap you try
to peddle.
Try reading it anyways, you see for example that when it was cold and food got scarce, witches were burned
Helped the church perhaps (it uses fiction to manipulate and control people and suck people for money), or sellers of wood.
Now those temperature changes are blamed on CO2.
CO2 / witches.. what's next?

If you DID read it you would see it largely WAS global.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
Generations are now brought up who glue themselves to the ground blocking normal activity that HELPS
us cope with life, they claim to 'save the earth' In fact they are too dumb to even know how to connect a light bulb.
All should be sent to a re-eductation camp as the Gore crap and CO2 crap polluted their brains and yours.
Somebody who believes what he reads in the Daily Telegraph and Russia
Today hasn't got a brain to pollute. You are as silly as Cursitor Doom.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
Or so Jan likes to think - or rather that's what the fossil carbon
extraction industry want's him to think.
Post by Jan Panteltje
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing
climate
Else mass migration and mass death of human beings is pre-programmmed.
It isn't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
And pigs might fly
Easy
book a flight for those, AS LONG AS AIRPLANES ARE STILL ALLOWED BY THOSE CLIMATE IDIOTS
now they already screw up flights by glueing themselves to the runways..
Really? Where? You do invent a lot of nonsense.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=climate+activist+block+german+airport+by+glueing

Learn to use google, its not that hard for most humming beans.

And while you are at it, see that CO2 LAGGED warmer periods in the long ago past:
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
has some references.
Bill Sloman
2024-08-08 06:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 23:28:00 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:40:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:44:48 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Wed, 7 Aug 2024 00:06:25 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by Jan Panteltje
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
Of course it would be even easier to wipe out the United Provinces of
the Netherlands - you don't even need nukes to blow holes in a few
dikes, and the sea will do the rest.
Submerge ASML and the western chip industry is down the tubes.
https://www.rt.com/india/602201-india-semiconductor-manufacturing/
if blocked try
89.191.237.192
"
India’s Tata Electronics has begun the construction of a new $3.2 billion semiconductor plant,
which is expected to generate 27,000 jobs.
The plant will be located in Assam, the largest of the states in India’s northeast,
and produce over 48 million chips per day using locally-developed technologies,
India’s electronics and information technology minister has said.
The plant has already hired around 1,000 locals for the project,
Tata chairperson N. Chandrasekaran said at the ‘bhumi pujan’ ceremony
(a Hindu ritual performed ahead of construction) for the plant.
The facility is expected to generate 15,000 direct and 11,000 to 13,000 indirect jobs when it opens, he said.
"
What ASML does is likely copied in a short while.
Perhaps not. What Phil Hobbs recent book revealed is that it isn't easy
to copy or improve. It's bound to happen eventually, but "a short while"
is unrealistic (like most of Jan's claims).
Post by Jan Panteltje
US tries to stop ASML from supplying China with the latest chip tech.
As to US, it will either be nuked into oblivion or self-destruct, maybe even both.
Competing against India is a no-go for that US.
Today they were babbling about a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Bunch of lunatics, US mafia...
Much of it is without power now after the latest storm in Florida
a lot will be under-water soon.
No need for bombs.
Nature.
The Dutch have been resisting nature for quite a while now, since long
before the United Provinces got united under William the Silent.
Right, higher IQ helps
Not that the Netherlands can claim that. Jan certainly can't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
So many empires came and went, some because of climate changes.
But very few because of climate changes that they initiated, and could
reverse. And the US isn't any kind of empire, any more than the first
Dutch Republic was.
http://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm
Don't bother. It's totally irrelevant to the climate change we are now
seeing. It does have something to do to with Milankovich cycles, but
i
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/why-milankovitch-orbital-cycles-cant-explain-earths-current-warming/
There is a lot NASA cannot explain as it is a pawn in the game of a big industry and locked in dumbness by
dancing to the tune of poly-ticsians some of which are religious biased to the point of poining out that earth was created
4000 years ago,
species Kamala is derived for Adam who did it with Eve, Pi is 4 and what not..
When life is detected on Mars by their own experiment they deny it so as to keep funding by them religious fanatoc freaks
http://www.gillevin.com/
A little while ago (in cosmic terms) there was the little ice age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
So fast variations in temperature over short times (several hundred years) and the fact we are now in a solar sunspot maximum
helps sell the Al Gore crap.
Twaddle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum
It doesn't seem to have any effect on the earth's climate. The little
ice age was pretty much confined to the north Atlantic region, so it has
nothing to do with global warming or cooling - despite the crap you try
to peddle.
Try reading it anyways, you see for example that when it was cold and food got scarce, witches were burned
Helped the church perhaps (it uses fiction to manipulate and control people and suck people for money), or sellers of wood.
Now those temperature changes are blamed on CO2.
CO2 / witches.. what's next?
If you DID read it you would see it largely WAS global.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
Generations are now brought up who glue themselves to the ground blocking normal activity that HELPS
us cope with life, they claim to 'save the earth' In fact they are too dumb to even know how to connect a light bulb.
All should be sent to a re-eductation camp as the Gore crap and CO2 crap polluted their brains and yours.
Somebody who believes what he reads in the Daily Telegraph and Russia
Today hasn't got a brain to pollute. You are as silly as Cursitor Doom.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
The Al Gore sales crap that we caused it all, is just a way to sell more, often useless, stuff
and break all good things.
Or so Jan likes to think - or rather that's what the fossil carbon
extraction industry want's him to think.
Post by Jan Panteltje
We need to bring all energy sources online to be able to cope (aircos, safe underground places perhaps) with a changing
climate
Else mass migration and mass death of human beings is pre-programmmed.
It isn't.
Post by Jan Panteltje
Human species could be decimated by 90 % or more...
And pigs might fly
Easy
book a flight for those, AS LONG AS AIRPLANES ARE STILL ALLOWED BY THOSE CLIMATE IDIOTS
now they already screw up flights by glueing themselves to the runways..
Really? Where? You do invent a lot of nonsense.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=climate+activist+block+german+airport+by+glueing
Learn to use google, its not that hard for most human beings.
That instance of the idiot behavior didn't stop many flights, and it's
very unlikely to work a second time.
Post by Jan Panteltje
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
has some references.
None of which you understand. The Milankovich effect works mainly by
changing snow cover and thus the Earth's albedo. Colder oceans absorb
more CO2 so the atmospheric CO2 level is a lagging indicator.

At the moment we are driving global warming by dumping more CO2 in the
atmosphere, so it is a leading indicator.

It's a different situation so the timings are different.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-08 10:01:25 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Aug 2024 16:59:49 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=climate+activist+block+german+airport+by+glueing
Learn to use google, its not that hard for most human beings.
That instance of the idiot behavior didn't stop many flights, and it's
very unlikely to work a second time.
That already happened 3 times now:
18 mei 2024 · Six climate activists broke through a security fence at the Munich airport Saturday and glued themselves to access routes leading to runways ...
24 jul 2024 · Climate activists glue themselves to a taxiway at Cologne-Bonn Airport
25 jul 2024 · Frankfurt airport suspends flights after climate protesters block ... Six protesters glued themselves to a taxiway, according to activist group ...

Like I pointed out, learn to use google, most humming beans know how to use it, might work for your species too :-)
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
has some references.
None of which you understand. The Milankovich effect works mainly by
changing snow cover and thus the Earth's albedo. Colder oceans absorb
more CO2 so the atmospheric CO2 level is a lagging indicator.
At the moment we are driving global warming by dumping more CO2 in the
atmosphere, so it is a leading indicator.
It's a different situation so the timings are different.
Look up that recent cold period again, everybody was burning wood to cook food.
Sure there were far less people back then but making more CO2, but it mysteriously got colder and colder.

It is all about the Sun's activity.
And maybe also what our solar system and even our galaxy is moving through in space.
Denial of reality is what the earth is flat crowd, the sun orbits the earth crowd,
the CO2 causes glow ball worming crowd, the space is curved crowd, so many other parrot groups,
caused the destruction of what made them appear here in the first place.
Without all the real tech they object to they would not have been born, had a place to live, or food to eat.
Same for dismantling the nuclear plants when that wimmin leader named murkel? was in power in Germany,
now they finally discovered the claims made were false.
https://www.dw.com/en/german-ministers-quizzed-over-nuclear-phase-out-deception/a-68931166
She was probably a CIA clown, CIA wants no nuke plants in Germany afraid they will make a bomb or two
to free Europe from NATO?
To free the world from genocide committing you wish scum?

Ok, but maybe you - upside down- in sit knee see thing inverted...
Bill Sloman
2024-08-10 07:15:17 UTC
Permalink
On 8/08/2024 8:01 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:> On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Aug
2024 16:59:49 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman> <***@ieee.org>
wrote in <v91qdd$3pjer$***@dont-email.me>:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=climate+activist+block+german+airport+by+glueing>>>
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
Learn to use google, its not that hard for most human beings.
That instance of the idiot behavior didn't stop many flights, and it's
very unlikely to work a second time.
18 mei 2024 · Six climate activists broke through a security fence at
the Munich airport Saturday and glued themselves to access routes
leading to runways ...> 24 jul 2024 · Climate activists glue themselves
to a taxiway at Cologne-Bonn Airport> 25 jul 2024 · Frankfurt airport
suspends flights after climate protesters block ... Six protesters glued
themselves to a taxiway, according to activist group ...

Big deal. It worked once in Munich in May, and worked again in
Cologne-Bonn and Frankfurt two months later. German regional airports
don't seem to have great security.
Like I pointed out, learn to use google, most humming beans know how
to use it, might work for your species too :-)

You should know perfectly well that I can use Google and use it a lot to
show up your superficial ignorance. You are too dumb to be as
intimidated as you ought to be.
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
And while you are at it, see that CO2 LAGGED warmer periods in the
long ago past:>>> http://www.co2science.org/articles/V6/N26/EDIT.php
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by Jan Panteltje
has some references.
None of which you understand. The Milankovich effect works mainly by
changing snow cover and thus the Earth's albedo. Colder oceans absorb
more CO2 so the atmospheric CO2 level is a lagging indicator.
At the moment we are driving global warming by dumping more CO2 in
the atmosphere, so it is a leading indicator.>>
Post by Bill Sloman
It's a different situation, so the timings are different.
Look up that recent cold period again, everybody was burning wood to
cook food.> Sure there were far less people back then but making more
CO2, but it mysteriously got colder and colder.

Burning wood is climate neutral. The carbon in the wood got taken out of
the atmosphere a few decades earlier, and would have gone back into the
atmosphere if the wood have been left to riot. Digging up fossil carbon
to burn it as fuel isn't climate neutral.
It is all about the Sun's activity.
It isn't. The climate change denial clowns like to tell people that, but
only the hopelessly gullible - like you - fall for it.
And maybe also what our solar system and even our galaxy is moving through in space.
Twaddle.
Denial of reality is what the earth is flat crowd, the sun orbits the
earth crowd, the CO2 causes glow ball worming crowd, the space is curved
crowd, so many other parrot groups, caused the destruction of what made
them appear here in the first place.

You haven't got a clue about what's real. You are a sucker for all kinds
of implausible nonsense, and this is some of it.
Without all the real tech they object to they would not have been
born, had a place to live, or food to eat.

Nobody is objecting to that kind of technology as such. What they do
object to is burning fossil carbon to get the energy that drives it when
we have renewable sources that can provide the energy more cheaply.
Same for dismantling the nuclear plants when that female leader named
Angela Merkel? was in power in Germany,> now they finally discovered the
claims made were false.
https://www.dw.com/en/german-ministers-quizzed-over-nuclear-phase-out-deception/a-68931166

The claims weren't false, though the conservative opposition likes to
claim that they were.
She was probably a CIA clown, CIA wants no nuke plants in Germany
afraid they will make a bomb or two to free Europe from NATO?

Merkel grew up, and got her Ph.D, in East Germany. The CIA would have
found it difficult to get to her.
To free the world from genocide committing you wish scum?
The CIA couldn't care less about nuclear plants in Germany, and the
plutonium they made when operating is still there in the spent fuel
long after the reactor has been shut down. Stopping it getting taken out
of the spent fuel and turned into bombs relies on international inspectors.
Ok, but maybe you - upside down- in sit knee see thing inverted...
You do like to think that, but you do post quite enough implausible
nonsense to make it clear that your own thinking is entirely confused.
It is just one more of your silly mistakes.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
brian
2024-08-12 12:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Jan Panteltje
urity fence at
the Munich airport Saturday and glued themselves to access routes
leading to runways ...> 24 jul 2024 · Climate activists glue themselves
to a taxiway at Cologne-Bonn Airport> 25 jul 2024 · Frankfurt airport
suspends flights after climate protesters block ... Six protesters
glued themselves to a taxiway, according to activist group ...
I wonder what sort of glue -sorry bonding agent, they use ? I can never
get anything to stick reliably.

Brian
--
Brian Howie
John Larkin
2024-08-12 15:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by brian
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Jan Panteltje
urity fence at
the Munich airport Saturday and glued themselves to access routes
leading to runways ...> 24 jul 2024 · Climate activists glue themselves
to a taxiway at Cologne-Bonn Airport> 25 jul 2024 · Frankfurt airport
suspends flights after climate protesters block ... Six protesters
glued themselves to a taxiway, according to activist group ...
I wonder what sort of glue -sorry bonding agent, they use ? I can never
get anything to stick reliably.
Brian
How do they get un-glued?
Phil Hobbs
2024-08-12 16:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by brian
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Jan Panteltje
urity fence at
the Munich airport Saturday and glued themselves to access routes
leading to runways ...> 24 jul 2024 � Climate activists glue themselves
to a taxiway at Cologne-Bonn Airport> 25 jul 2024 � Frankfurt airport
suspends flights after climate protesters block ... Six protesters
glued themselves to a taxiway, according to activist group ...
I wonder what sort of glue -sorry bonding agent, they use ? I can never
get anything to stick reliably.
Brian
How do they get un-glued?
A couple of years back, some of those persons -with-a-legitimate-grievance
glued themselves to the lobby floor of, iirc, Deutsche Bank in Manhattan.

They just closed the lobby and left them there overnight, with no food or
drink and no potty breaks. I forget whether or not they got themselves
loose before morning.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
John Larkin
2024-08-06 15:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.
Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.
Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Markets..
My Intel core I5 laptop is still much much faster than my ARM based Raspberry Pi4 8 GB
And even my old AMD 64 PCs are...
I do not realy like ARM architecture.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/03/berkshire-hathaway-warren-buffett-sells-off-apple-increases-cash-holdings
Writing bloat to sell more hardware is a silly game.
As silly as 'very old saying Archie? 'Do not fix it if it is not broken'
We had, at one time, a few guys doing 'preventive maintenance'
on electronic equipment in the studio.
Well some interesting fault finding required after that, my boss got stuck...
I fixed it in 10 minutes the next morning, the 'preventive maintenace' group had not properly tighened a PL259 connector, ground screen was loose
interference impulses everywhere (was fast tacho pulse cable).
US financial system, dollar value, I think the old plan was to inflate the debt away.
But grabbing Iranian oil could pay some US debt.
Follow the money
So have that notanyyahoo provoke as much war as possible to create a reason to invade Iran, sell more weapons,
even maybe go as far as to get Russia on line give it YouCrane
Its all games US plays.
This time it will not work, too many real nukes everywhere, US is so small, take a globe and look the ratio of noise the US
makes versus the rest of the world. compared to surface area..
Russia China Pakistan India all have their nukes... Probably some more N Korea...
Invade Iran for some silly lie, like George Double You Booooooos did for weapons of mass destruction that did not really exist in Iraq
more war crmes, Japan nuking, Afganistan, Korea, just a weapon manufacturer tha tUS is, and it even kills its own peole with thsoe all the time.
Criminal, genocide, no matter what.
And crap weapons it makes, there are people here protesting against the horrible noise the F35 makes that we bougt (our CIA controlled polly ticksians did)
What a piece of shit that F35
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
A lot of countries are buying F35s.
Bill Sloman
2024-08-07 02:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
<snip>
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
And crap weapons it makes, there are people here protesting against the horrible noise the F35 makes that we bougt (our CIA controlled polly ticksians did)
What a piece of shit that F35
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
A lot of countries are buying F35s.
If you can find the right politicians to bribe, you can sell all sort of
dubious weapons.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software.
www.norton.com
Jan Panteltje
2024-08-07 06:07:25 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Aug 2024 08:42:21 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:30:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.
Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.
Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Markets..
My Intel core I5 laptop is still much much faster than my ARM based Raspberry Pi4 8 GB
And even my old AMD 64 PCs are...
I do not realy like ARM architecture.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/03/berkshire-hathaway-warren-buffett-sells-off-apple-increases-cash-holdings
Writing bloat to sell more hardware is a silly game.
As silly as 'very old saying Archie? 'Do not fix it if it is not broken'
We had, at one time, a few guys doing 'preventive maintenance'
on electronic equipment in the studio.
Well some interesting fault finding required after that, my boss got stuck...
I fixed it in 10 minutes the next morning, the 'preventive maintenace' group had not properly tighened a PL259 connector,
ground screen was loose
interference impulses everywhere (was fast tacho pulse cable).
US financial system, dollar value, I think the old plan was to inflate the debt away.
But grabbing Iranian oil could pay some US debt.
Follow the money
So have that notanyyahoo provoke as much war as possible to create a reason to invade Iran, sell more weapons,
even maybe go as far as to get Russia on line give it YouCrane
Its all games US plays.
This time it will not work, too many real nukes everywhere, US is so small, take a globe and look the ratio of noise the US
makes versus the rest of the world. compared to surface area..
Russia China Pakistan India all have their nukes... Probably some more N Korea...
Invade Iran for some silly lie, like George Double You Booooooos did for weapons of mass destruction that did not really exist
in Iraq
more war crmes, Japan nuking, Afganistan, Korea, just a weapon manufacturer tha tUS is, and it even kills its own peole with
thsoe all the time.
Criminal, genocide, no matter what.
And crap weapons it makes, there are people here protesting against the horrible noise the F35 makes that we bougt (our CIA
controlled polly ticksians did)
What a piece of shit that F35
Should not be a problem to wipe out that US .
:-)
A lot of countries are buying F35s.
Lots of countries are using MS windows and US security updates that then messed up their airlines....
Lots of people eat junkfood and die young.

When that F35 shit passes over here (I am just a few miles from a mil airport) you
can neither have a phone conversation, or listen to TV or radio.
In a previous world war Germany detected enemy aircraft by the sound those made.
A few dollar electret mike setup would ridicule that F35 'stealth' sales crap.
A shot of RF reflecting paint by an agent or drone would make that F35 visible all over the place.
F16 was a reasobale good plane, US making war in - and EU sending its F16s to YouCrane and
then buying F35 is that NATO US weapon sales agency's game.


:-)
bitrex
2024-08-06 15:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.
Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.
Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Their GPU business is struggling also, which is too bad as their Arc
GPUs are pretty good for the price, particularly for video editing and
transcoding.

I bought an Arc 580 for my A/V editing machine and for $169 on sale it
was a no brainer:

<https://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Challenger-256-bit-Design-Cooling/dp/B0CJGSP9R7?th=1>

It has some bug that makes it have high idle power consumption in some
setups including mine, 35 watts, which is absurd by modern standards.
None of the fixes seem to work. The price of early adoption but the PC
is asleep most of the time, anyway.

It's hilarious what a "low-end" GPU looks like these days, with _14_
power pins, about a foot and a half long and would break your foot if
you dropped it on it.
John Larkin
2024-08-06 15:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by bitrex
Post by John Larkin
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 12:32:23 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
https://www.nextplatform.com/2024/08/02/the-resurrection-of-intel-will-take-more-than-three-days/?td=rt-3a
Looks like they wrecked Altera.
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Joe Gwinn
Yes, it's an ancient dog. It's immensely complex to push the X86
architecture for speed, hence the power consumption and all the bugs.
<https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/1ehjuzj/i_bought_700k_worth_of_intel_stock_today/>
Since its peak in 2024, Intel stock has lost 2/3 of its value.
About 1/3rd of that in the past 3 days..
Sorry, I meant 2022.
Intel is like Kodak and Polaroid and Xerox, fixated on their own aging
technology. Intel missed the boat big-time on EUV, so it's hilarious
that they project big revenues in the foundry business.
Intel has done $152 billion in stock buybacks, instead of investing in
their own business. Now they need government subsidies.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/intel-subsidy-chips-act-stock-buyback
Their GPU business is struggling also, which is too bad as their Arc
GPUs are pretty good for the price, particularly for video editing and
transcoding.
I bought an Arc 580 for my A/V editing machine and for $169 on sale it
<https://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Challenger-256-bit-Design-Cooling/dp/B0CJGSP9R7?th=1>
It has some bug that makes it have high idle power consumption in some
setups including mine, 35 watts, which is absurd by modern standards.
None of the fixes seem to work. The price of early adoption but the PC
is asleep most of the time, anyway.
It's hilarious what a "low-end" GPU looks like these days, with _14_
power pins, about a foot and a half long and would break your foot if
you dropped it on it.
I bought four new PCs recently. The motherboards are tiny. The GPUs
are huge and heavy.
Don Y
2024-08-03 22:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86. Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever. They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".

OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.

Remember SC/MP? 2650? 2A03? 8x300? 1802? T11/F11? 9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000? 16032? RGP? 29K?

What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!

Sad that we have so few "choices", now. And, such brain damaged I/Os!
TTman
2024-08-03 22:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it
worked as a printer buffer!
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
John Larkin
2024-08-03 22:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it
worked as a printer buffer!
68K was a thing of beauty. Moto even did a risc (not microcoded)
version.
Joe Gwinn
2024-08-04 18:51:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 15:34:26 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it
worked as a printer buffer!
68K was a thing of beauty. Moto even did a risc (not microcoded)
version.
Many decades ago, I met the Instruction Set Architect of the M68000
family of processor chips. He said that it was inspired by the DEC
PDP11 instruction set.

Joe Gwinn
John Larkin
2024-08-04 19:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 03 Aug 2024 15:34:26 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it
worked as a printer buffer!
68K was a thing of beauty. Moto even did a risc (not microcoded)
version.
Many decades ago, I met the Instruction Set Architect of the M68000
family of processor chips. He said that it was inspired by the DEC
PDP11 instruction set.
Joe Gwinn
Yes. The PDP-11 was sort of revolutionary.
Don Y
2024-08-03 22:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...
The 1802 predated it as the first CMOS *CPU* (no idea as to first
"CMOS hand held terminal")
Post by TTman
and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it worked as
a printer buffer!
Z80 clocks were slow enough that you could squeeze the refresh
cycle into each M1 and a few "muxilpeckers" gave you a DRAM
controller -- at normal bus speed. A bit clumsier on other
processors.

I put a bank of "by 1" DRAM into a device and allowed each "bit lane"
to be stuffed with either 16Kx1 or 64Kx1 devices. So, you had 16Kx8
of DRAM with some combination of 0-8 additional bit-widths of DRAM
above that (obviously accessed via a subroutine that would
piece together *bytes* from sequential *bits* in each bit lane)

[I used it as a data store so access time wasn't important]

The 64K I/O space was a huge win as it let you move "stuff"
out of the main *memory* address decoder. I would cringe when
working on (e.g.) motogorilla hardware and had to more fully
decode addresses in order not to "waste" the single address
space on something as silly as an output latch.

[It was common for Z80/68xx comparisons to be made and rules
of thumb equating their equivalent performance (in some
application niche. God, I hate the load/store architecture!]

The 68K's bus timing was a significant annoyance as it made
NUMA multiprocessor systems costly to design. I managed to
design a custom processor that had exactly (on paper) the
same bus timing as the 68010 -- so I could just treat it
as yet another 68K as far as the arbiter was concerned!

[Try sharing a bus between two heterogeneous processors
and you will appreciate the beauty, there!]

The original 32K had an interesting approach with EXTERNAL
coprocessors (FPU, MMU) which others assumed had to be
internal.

[And the 99K was even wonkier with their "workspaces"!]

Now, hardware is boring vanilla. But, thankfully, the types
of capabilities that are now affordable in OTS devices means
one can move all of that creativity into software, instead!
Eventually, folks will learn to accept them as the new norm...
Heck, it only took a few decades for multitasking to become
the norm... :<
piglet
2024-08-04 08:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Y
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...
The 1802 predated it as the first CMOS *CPU* (no idea as to first
"CMOS hand held terminal")
Post by TTman
and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it worked as
a printer buffer!
Z80 clocks were slow enough that you could squeeze the refresh
cycle into each M1 and a few "muxilpeckers" gave you a DRAM
controller -- at normal bus speed. A bit clumsier on other
processors.
I put a bank of "by 1" DRAM into a device and allowed each "bit lane"
to be stuffed with either 16Kx1 or 64Kx1 devices. So, you had 16Kx8
of DRAM with some combination of 0-8 additional bit-widths of DRAM
above that (obviously accessed via a subroutine that would
piece together *bytes* from sequential *bits* in each bit lane)
[I used it as a data store so access time wasn't important]
The 64K I/O space was a huge win as it let you move "stuff"
out of the main *memory* address decoder. I would cringe when
working on (e.g.) motogorilla hardware and had to more fully
decode addresses in order not to "waste" the single address
space on something as silly as an output latch.
[It was common for Z80/68xx comparisons to be made and rules
of thumb equating their equivalent performance (in some
application niche. God, I hate the load/store architecture!]
The 68K's bus timing was a significant annoyance as it made
NUMA multiprocessor systems costly to design. I managed to
design a custom processor that had exactly (on paper) the
same bus timing as the 68010 -- so I could just treat it
as yet another 68K as far as the arbiter was concerned!
[Try sharing a bus between two heterogeneous processors
and you will appreciate the beauty, there!]
The original 32K had an interesting approach with EXTERNAL
coprocessors (FPU, MMU) which others assumed had to be
internal.
[And the 99K was even wonkier with their "workspaces"!]
Now, hardware is boring vanilla. But, thankfully, the types
of capabilities that are now affordable in OTS devices means
one can move all of that creativity into software, instead!
Eventually, folks will learn to accept them as the new norm...
Heck, it only took a few decades for multitasking to become
the norm... :<
Yes, the 1802 was great, the address bus was muxed high byte low bytes so
interfacing to DRAM was extremely easy.
--
piglet
Don Y
2024-08-04 10:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by piglet
Post by Don Y
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86.  Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever.  They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP?  2650?  2A03?  8x300?  1802?  T11/F11?  9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000?  16032?  RGP?  29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now.  And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...
The 1802 predated it as the first CMOS *CPU* (no idea as to first
"CMOS hand held terminal")
Post by TTman
and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it worked as
a printer buffer!
Z80 clocks were slow enough that you could squeeze the refresh
cycle into each M1 and a few "muxilpeckers" gave you a DRAM
controller -- at normal bus speed. A bit clumsier on other
processors.
I put a bank of "by 1" DRAM into a device and allowed each "bit lane"
to be stuffed with either 16Kx1 or 64Kx1 devices. So, you had 16Kx8
of DRAM with some combination of 0-8 additional bit-widths of DRAM
above that (obviously accessed via a subroutine that would
piece together *bytes* from sequential *bits* in each bit lane)
[I used it as a data store so access time wasn't important]
The 64K I/O space was a huge win as it let you move "stuff"
out of the main *memory* address decoder. I would cringe when
working on (e.g.) motogorilla hardware and had to more fully
decode addresses in order not to "waste" the single address
space on something as silly as an output latch.
[It was common for Z80/68xx comparisons to be made and rules
of thumb equating their equivalent performance (in some
application niche. God, I hate the load/store architecture!]
The 68K's bus timing was a significant annoyance as it made
NUMA multiprocessor systems costly to design. I managed to
design a custom processor that had exactly (on paper) the
same bus timing as the 68010 -- so I could just treat it
as yet another 68K as far as the arbiter was concerned!
[Try sharing a bus between two heterogeneous processors
and you will appreciate the beauty, there!]
The original 32K had an interesting approach with EXTERNAL
coprocessors (FPU, MMU) which others assumed had to be
internal.
[And the 99K was even wonkier with their "workspaces"!]
Now, hardware is boring vanilla. But, thankfully, the types
of capabilities that are now affordable in OTS devices means
one can move all of that creativity into software, instead!
Eventually, folks will learn to accept them as the new norm...
Heck, it only took a few decades for multitasking to become
the norm... :<
Yes, the 1802 was great, the address bus was muxed high byte low bytes so
interfacing to DRAM was extremely easy.
The fact that there were a bajillion clocks per bus cycle was
delightful! Contrast that with things like the 6502/68xx; you
had to resort to one-shots to get "edges" where you wanted them!
The lack of a "refresh counter" meant more devices on the PCB.

"Great?" Meh... :>

It was (like many other devices in that era) "different". E.g.,
I/O was more like a "fly by" operation supported by some DMACs
instead of an explicit LOAD/STORE to "I/O space".

I really liked having a shitload of registers available; the idea of
having to keep going back to memory to reacquire a datum that I had
IN MY HANDS a few opcode fetches earlier always annoyed me (even
disguising this as a "workspace" did little to remove the foul taste).

I also miss support for BCD operations (nice when you are dealing
with physical display decoders, etc.). But, that was true of many CPUs.

Mnemonics were kind of wonky -- largely a consequence of all the
oddities in the programming model (SEX, PHI, GLO, NLBR, etc.)

Today's "programmers" would probably be confused by the variety available,
back then. I think they assume more "generic" programming models.
Expecting them to understand the architecture of the processor to make
sense of the instruction set ("the reason why things are done THIS way...")
seems like a stretch.

Imagine dealing with an 8x300 ("Where's the CALL instruction???")!
Edward Rawde
2024-08-04 18:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by piglet
Post by Don Y
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86. Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever. They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP? 2650? 2A03? 8x300? 1802? T11/F11? 9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000? 16032? RGP? 29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now. And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...
The 1802 predated it as the first CMOS *CPU* (no idea as to first
"CMOS hand held terminal")
Post by TTman
and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it worked as
a printer buffer!
Z80 clocks were slow enough that you could squeeze the refresh
cycle into each M1 and a few "muxilpeckers" gave you a DRAM
controller -- at normal bus speed. A bit clumsier on other
processors.
I put a bank of "by 1" DRAM into a device and allowed each "bit lane"
to be stuffed with either 16Kx1 or 64Kx1 devices. So, you had 16Kx8
of DRAM with some combination of 0-8 additional bit-widths of DRAM
above that (obviously accessed via a subroutine that would
piece together *bytes* from sequential *bits* in each bit lane)
[I used it as a data store so access time wasn't important]
The 64K I/O space was a huge win as it let you move "stuff"
out of the main *memory* address decoder. I would cringe when
working on (e.g.) motogorilla hardware and had to more fully
decode addresses in order not to "waste" the single address
space on something as silly as an output latch.
[It was common for Z80/68xx comparisons to be made and rules
of thumb equating their equivalent performance (in some
application niche. God, I hate the load/store architecture!]
The 68K's bus timing was a significant annoyance as it made
NUMA multiprocessor systems costly to design. I managed to
design a custom processor that had exactly (on paper) the
same bus timing as the 68010 -- so I could just treat it
as yet another 68K as far as the arbiter was concerned!
[Try sharing a bus between two heterogeneous processors
and you will appreciate the beauty, there!]
The original 32K had an interesting approach with EXTERNAL
coprocessors (FPU, MMU) which others assumed had to be
internal.
[And the 99K was even wonkier with their "workspaces"!]
Now, hardware is boring vanilla. But, thankfully, the types
of capabilities that are now affordable in OTS devices means
one can move all of that creativity into software, instead!
Eventually, folks will learn to accept them as the new norm...
Heck, it only took a few decades for multitasking to become
the norm... :<
Yes, the 1802 was great, the address bus was muxed high byte low bytes so
interfacing to DRAM was extremely easy.
I never used the 1802 but it did look like a nice architecture to me at the time.
Is that the one which stored the return address in the first two addresses of a subroutine or am I thinking of something else?
Post by piglet
--
piglet
John Larkin
2024-08-04 18:43:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:27:48 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by piglet
Post by Don Y
Post by TTman
Post by Don Y
Post by Joe Gwinn
And hung onto the Intel '86 architecture a tad too tightly, for far
too long.
Intel's folly was abandoning their more diverse offerings and focusing
solely on the x86. Yeah, they tinkered with SA and Xscale but deluded
themselves into thinking that the "PC" would roll on, forever. They
completely missed out on the larger embedded market in favor of more pricey
PC "CPUs".
OTOH, many of the original "big names" made similarly narrow-minded
decisions.
Remember SC/MP? 2650? 2A03? 8x300? 1802? T11/F11? 9900?
Z280/Z800/Z8000/Z80000? 16032? RGP? 29K?
What's truly amusing is how GI managed to survive and, to some extent,
thrive -- despite their dog of a "CPU"!
Sad that we have so few "choices", now. And, such brain damaged I/Os!
My fave was the NSC800...I usd it in the first (?) all cmos hand held
terminal...
The 1802 predated it as the first CMOS *CPU* (no idea as to first
"CMOS hand held terminal")
Post by TTman
and the Z80 could do io mapped DRAM, albeit slowly but it worked as
a printer buffer!
Z80 clocks were slow enough that you could squeeze the refresh
cycle into each M1 and a few "muxilpeckers" gave you a DRAM
controller -- at normal bus speed. A bit clumsier on other
processors.
I put a bank of "by 1" DRAM into a device and allowed each "bit lane"
to be stuffed with either 16Kx1 or 64Kx1 devices. So, you had 16Kx8
of DRAM with some combination of 0-8 additional bit-widths of DRAM
above that (obviously accessed via a subroutine that would
piece together *bytes* from sequential *bits* in each bit lane)
[I used it as a data store so access time wasn't important]
The 64K I/O space was a huge win as it let you move "stuff"
out of the main *memory* address decoder. I would cringe when
working on (e.g.) motogorilla hardware and had to more fully
decode addresses in order not to "waste" the single address
space on something as silly as an output latch.
[It was common for Z80/68xx comparisons to be made and rules
of thumb equating their equivalent performance (in some
application niche. God, I hate the load/store architecture!]
The 68K's bus timing was a significant annoyance as it made
NUMA multiprocessor systems costly to design. I managed to
design a custom processor that had exactly (on paper) the
same bus timing as the 68010 -- so I could just treat it
as yet another 68K as far as the arbiter was concerned!
[Try sharing a bus between two heterogeneous processors
and you will appreciate the beauty, there!]
The original 32K had an interesting approach with EXTERNAL
coprocessors (FPU, MMU) which others assumed had to be
internal.
[And the 99K was even wonkier with their "workspaces"!]
Now, hardware is boring vanilla. But, thankfully, the types
of capabilities that are now affordable in OTS devices means
one can move all of that creativity into software, instead!
Eventually, folks will learn to accept them as the new norm...
Heck, it only took a few decades for multitasking to become
the norm... :<
Yes, the 1802 was great, the address bus was muxed high byte low bytes so
interfacing to DRAM was extremely easy.
I never used the 1802 but it did look like a nice architecture to me at the time.
Is that the one which stored the return address in the first two addresses of a subroutine or am I thinking of something else?
Post by piglet
--
piglet
The PDP-8 stored the return address (12 bit) in the first location of
a subroutine.
Don Y
2024-08-04 19:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Rawde
Post by piglet
Yes, the 1802 was great, the address bus was muxed high byte low bytes so
interfacing to DRAM was extremely easy.
I never used the 1802 but it did look like a nice architecture to me at the time.
Is that the one which stored the return address in the first two addresses of a subroutine or am I thinking of something else?
The 1802 made the programmer "manually" alter the PC and, later, restore
it.

You essentially told the processor to use a different register
as the PC -- after having placed the address (registers are 16b)
in that register. You similarly would re-alter it to get back to
the point (following) where you made the change.

[This is a cruder version of the more modern BAL -- where the
programmer specifies the link register]

There are a couple of different ways of doing this but none is really
as clean (or efficient) as a CALL/JSR/BAL. You had to write code
to BUILD the CALL/JSR *mechanism* and then use that "subroutine"
as a linkage to invoke your desired "subroutine" while stacking the
return address so YOU could perform the reverse linkage when
the subroutine was complete.

I.e., think about what a "normal" processor does when it encounters
a CALL:
copy the address following the instruction onto a stack...
... that is indexed by a "stack pointer" register...
... updating that register in preparation for the next use...
place the destination address into the program counter

<your code here>

retrieve the stacked address "before" the referenced SP location...
...update the "stack pointer" register...
place the retrieved address into the program counter
Code for each of the above steps had to be WRITTEN by the programmer
to emulate a CALL (and RETURN) facility.

This was incredibly inefficient -- especially for a slow processor.

Newer processor designs avoid storing the return address on a
memory-based stack as this often causes needless memory accesses.
I.e., if your subroutine isn't going to "call" anything, then
why do you need to store more than the most recent return
address... IN A REGISTER!

[If you are going to need to call another subroutine, then you
take steps to preserve the state of any registers that could
be clobbered in that action -- like the "link" register!]
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