Discussion:
OT: Bitcoin offers solution to global currency problems.
(too old to reply)
Bill Bowden
2013-11-22 02:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more government control, QE stuff, or inflation. All transactions done by computers?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency

MILTON FRIEDMAN famously called for the abolition of the Federal Reserve, which he thought ought to be replaced by an automated system which would increase the money supply at a steady, predetermined rate. This, he argued, would put a lid on inflation, setting spending and investment decisions on a surer footing. Now, Friedman's dream has finally been realised—albeit not by a real-world central bank.

Bitcoin, the world's "first decentralised digital currency", was devised in 2009 by programmer Satoshi Nakomoto (thought not to be his—or her—real name). Unlike other virtual monies—like Second Life's Linden dollars, for instance—it does not have a central clearing house run by a single company or organisation. Nor is it pegged to any real-world currency, which it resembles in that it can be used to purchase real-world goods and services, not just virtual ones. However, rather than rely on a central monetary authority to monitor, verify and approve transactions, and manage the money supply, Bitcoin is underwritten by a peer-to-peer network akin to file-sharing services like BitTorrent.
David Eather
2013-11-22 04:17:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:09:22 +1000, Bill Bowden =
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more governme=
nt =
control, QE stuff, or inflation. All transactions done by computers?
No. Monstrous inflation! Only a very small and limited number of bit coi=
ns =

and a large and growing group of people wanting them. One of the early =

adopters (2010) bought 2 pizzas with 10000 bit coins. Old write ups of t=
he =

event say he paid the equivalent of $50000, then $75000 and at the price=
6 =

days ago $4-million. Thats $25 worth of food (the original cost) now =

equaling$4 million thats 2000% pa.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency
MILTON FRIEDMAN famously called for the abolition of the Federal =
Reserve, which he thought ought to be replaced by an automated system =
=
which would increase the money supply at a steady, predetermined rate.=
=
This, he argued, would put a lid on inflation, setting spending and =
investment decisions on a surer footing. Now, Friedman's dream has =
finally been realised=E2=80=94albeit not by a real-world central bank.=
Bitcoin, the world's "first decentralised digital currency", was devis=
ed =
in 2009 by programmer Satoshi Nakomoto (thought not to be his=E2=80=94=
or =
her=E2=80=94real name). Unlike other virtual monies=E2=80=94like Secon=
d Life's Linden =
dollars, for instance=E2=80=94it does not have a central clearing hous=
e run by a =
single company or organisation. Nor is it pegged to any real-world =
currency, which it resembles in that it can be used to purchase =
real-world goods and services, not just virtual ones. However, rather =
=
than rely on a central monetary authority to monitor, verify and appro=
ve =
transactions, and manage the money supply, Bitcoin is underwritten by =
a =
peer-to-peer network akin to file-sharing services like BitTorrent.
Tim Williams
2013-11-22 06:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Deflation, that is!

I suppose the biggest drawback, according to current economic theory, is
the lack of controls. Without a way to control the money supply, its
value against commodities will fluctuate with the markets, leading to all
the maladies associated therewith. To some extent, increased value
(deflation) will be stabilized by the value of mining bitcoins (higher
value = more money to be made from mining = more people mine; greater
supply = lower value). Presumably, that would more-or-less lock it to the
current ratio of electrical power cost to computing power per watt (until
a more efficient algorithm is found that beats it further, and so on).
But bitcoins are finite, and by the time the last ones are being mined,
the value will no longer be referenced to anything concrete.

For example, an alternative (with government backing, and which supports
all these lovely politician-meddling features..) might be invented, which
in turn causes a bitcoin crash, popping the bubble and costing a lot of
people a lot of investment.

Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

"David Eather" <***@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:***@phenom-pc...
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:09:22 +1000, Bill Bowden
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more government
control, QE stuff, or inflation. All transactions done by computers?
No. Monstrous inflation! Only a very small and limited number of bit coins
and a large and growing group of people wanting them. One of the early
adopters (2010) bought 2 pizzas with 10000 bit coins. Old write ups of the
event say he paid the equivalent of $50000, then $75000 and at the price 6
days ago $4-million. Thats $25 worth of food (the original cost) now
equaling$4 million thats 2000% pa.
Post by Bill Bowden
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency
MILTON FRIEDMAN famously called for the abolition of the Federal
Reserve, which he thought ought to be replaced by an automated system
which would increase the money supply at a steady, predetermined rate.
This, he argued, would put a lid on inflation, setting spending and
investment decisions on a surer footing. Now, Friedman's dream has
finally been realised—albeit not by a real-world central bank.
Bitcoin, the world's "first decentralised digital currency", was devised
in 2009 by programmer Satoshi Nakomoto (thought not to be his—or
her—real name). Unlike other virtual monies—like Second Life's
Linden dollars, for instance—it does not have a central clearing
house run by a single company or organisation. Nor is it pegged to any
real-world currency, which it resembles in that it can be used to
purchase real-world goods and services, not just virtual ones. However,
rather than rely on a central monetary authority to monitor, verify and
approve transactions, and manage the money supply, Bitcoin is
underwritten by a peer-to-peer network akin to file-sharing services
like BitTorrent.
Spehro Pefhany
2013-11-22 10:24:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 00:08:01 -0600, the renowned "Tim Williams"
Post by Tim Williams
For example, an alternative (with government backing, and which supports
all these lovely politician-meddling features..) might be invented, which
in turn causes a bitcoin crash, popping the bubble and costing a lot of
people a lot of investment.
That's my expectation (though there may be more dirty business than
just producing a competitor). It would have to get bigger by many
orders of magnitude before it would be too big to fail, and I suspect
it will be either slapped down or there will be an "embrace, extend
and extinguish" strategy brought into play.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
***@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Tim Williams
2013-11-22 13:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spehro Pefhany
That's my expectation (though there may be more dirty business than
just producing a competitor). It would have to get bigger by many
orders of magnitude before it would be too big to fail, and I suspect
it will be either slapped down or there will be an "embrace, extend
and extinguish" strategy brought into play.
Yes, assuming it survives and all. Most likely the Gum'mint is going to
slap it down in the next few years. Maybe someone will come out with
another, but there will probably be enough chilling effects in place by
then to minimize adoption (i.e., it won't become a 'thing' like BC is
now).

Government being what it is, actual implementation of a legitimate
electronic currency would take a few decades, and require coordination
with the credit card companies (because, whose else's palms are they going
to grease?), and various back alley deals in finance and industry that
will come to light yet make little difference to the outcome (at least,
that's how things seem to work today).

Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Martin Brown
2013-11-22 13:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Williams
Government being what it is, actual implementation of a legitimate
electronic currency would take a few decades, and require coordination
Belgium has had cryptographic eCash called Protons for nearly two
decades now. It is fast efficient for small purchases and paper free.

http://www.economist.com/node/147949

Their Banksys Proton chip technology is available off the shelf and
works (they have some of the best cryptographers in the business).
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Tim Williams
2013-11-22 19:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Oh yeah, Europe is doing some things right, aren't they? Let me rephrase
that then: adoption in the U.S.. ;o)

Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Tim Williams
Government being what it is, actual implementation of a legitimate
electronic currency would take a few decades, and require coordination
Belgium has had cryptographic eCash called Protons for nearly two
decades now. It is fast efficient for small purchases and paper free.
http://www.economist.com/node/147949
Their Banksys Proton chip technology is available off the shelf and
works (they have some of the best cryptographers in the business).
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jasen Betts
2013-11-22 11:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Williams
Deflation, that is!
I suppose the biggest drawback, according to current economic theory, is
the lack of controls. Without a way to control the money supply, its
value against commodities will fluctuate with the markets, leading to all
the maladies associated therewith. To some extent, increased value
(deflation) will be stabilized by the value of mining bitcoins (higher
value = more money to be made from mining = more people mine; greater
supply = lower value). Presumably, that would more-or-less lock it to the
current ratio of electrical power cost to computing power per watt (until
a more efficient algorithm is found that beats it further, and so on).
But bitcoins are finite, and by the time the last ones are being mined,
the value will no longer be referenced to anything concrete.
Bitcoins are minted at a pre-determined rate per unit time, (10 minutes)
so working harder will will not increase the supply. it will only your share
of that supply.
--
For a good time: install ntp
\

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
r***@wmail.fi
2013-11-23 14:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Bitcoins are minted at a pre-determined rate per unit time, (10 minutes)
so working harder will will not increase the supply. it will only your share
of that supply.
http://www.butterflylabs.com/

Regards,
Mikko
Jasen Betts
2013-11-24 07:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@wmail.fi
Post by Jasen Betts
Bitcoins are minted at a pre-determined rate per unit time, (10 minutes)
so working harder will will not increase the supply. it will only your share
of that supply.
http://www.butterflylabs.com/
Yeah, to mine bitcoin economically you need an ASIC.
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
Jasen Betts
2013-11-22 11:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Eather
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:09:22 +1000, Bill Bowden
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more government
control, QE stuff, or inflation. All transactions done by computers?
No. Monstrous inflation! Only a very small and limited number of bit coins
and a large and growing group of people wanting them. One of the early
adopters (2010) bought 2 pizzas with 10000 bit coins. Old write ups of the
event say he paid the equivalent of $50000, then $75000 and at the price 6
days ago $4-million. Thats $25 worth of food (the original cost) now
equaling$4 million thats 2000% pa.
Um.. when products get cheaper that's _deflation_
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
Michael A. Terrell
2013-11-26 01:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more government control, QE stuff, or inflation. All transactions done by computers?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency
MILTON FRIEDMAN famously called for the abolition of the Federal Reserve, which he thought ought to be replaced by an automated system which would increase the money supply at a steady, predetermined rate. This, he argued, would put a lid on inflation, setting spending and investment decisions on a surer footing. Now, Friedman's dream has finally been realised—albeit not by a real-world central bank.
Bitcoin, the world's "first decentralised digital currency", was devised in 2009 by programmer Satoshi Nakomoto (thought not to be his—or her—real name). Unlike other virtual monies—like Second Life's Linden dollars, for instance—it does not have a central clearing house run by a single company or organisation. Nor is it pegged to any real-world currency, which it resembles in that it can be used to purchase real-world goods and services, not just virtual ones. However, rather than rely on a central monetary authority to monitor, verify and approve transactions, and manage the money supply, Bitcoin is underwritten by a peer-to-peer network akin to file-sharing services like BitTorrent.
Digital 'Fool's Gold'.
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
2013-12-15 00:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.

Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.

VLV
RobertMacy
2013-12-15 14:34:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:27:22 -0700, Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.
Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.
VLV
With that in mind,
NEVER save bitcoins.
SPEND bitcoins fast, LEAVE others holding bitcoins,
ALWAYS change to real property as fast as possible.
u***@downunder.com
2013-12-15 15:51:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:34:56 -0700, RobertMacy
Post by RobertMacy
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:27:22 -0700, Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.
Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.
VLV
With that in mind,
NEVER save bitcoins.
SPEND bitcoins fast, LEAVE others holding bitcoins,
ALWAYS change to real property as fast as possible.
This applies of course to any currency. Assume that the US $100 bill
is so well forged that it passes all checks and the market is flooded
with these forgeries, the value of the US dollar will drop.

If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.

As a rule of thumb, any cryptographic method will be broken sooner or
later, the real question is, will the method be secure for a limited
period of time when the method is used. Don't expect any cryptological
method to be secure forever.
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-15 16:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@downunder.com
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:34:56 -0700, RobertMacy
Post by RobertMacy
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:27:22 -0700, Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.
Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.
VLV
With that in mind,
NEVER save bitcoins.
SPEND bitcoins fast, LEAVE others holding bitcoins,
ALWAYS change to real property as fast as possible.
This applies of course to any currency. Assume that the US $100 bill
is so well forged that it passes all checks and the market is flooded
with these forgeries, the value of the US dollar will drop.
Kinda like what the Fed is doing now.
Post by u***@downunder.com
If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.
Bits can be printed even faster than $100 bills.
Post by u***@downunder.com
As a rule of thumb, any cryptographic method will be broken sooner or
later, the real question is, will the method be secure for a limited
period of time when the method is used. Don't expect any cryptological
method to be secure forever.
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
Tim Williams
2013-12-15 17:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
Your thinking is backwards: it's a good currency specifically because it
is completely and utterly pointless. Read up on "fiat currency". Whereas
carbon credits were created with a purpose in mind.

Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs
Electrical Engineering Consultation
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-15 23:47:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:58:13 -0600, "Tim Williams"
Post by Tim Williams
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
Your thinking is backwards: it's a good currency specifically because it
is completely and utterly pointless. Read up on "fiat currency". Whereas
carbon credits were created with a purpose in mind.
Bullshit. There is even less transparency behind it than there is the
USG.
Jasen Betts
2013-12-16 07:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:58:13 -0600, "Tim Williams"
Post by Tim Williams
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
Your thinking is backwards: it's a good currency specifically because it
is completely and utterly pointless. Read up on "fiat currency". Whereas
carbon credits were created with a purpose in mind.
Bullshit. There is even less transparency behind it than there is the
USG.
A.W.

bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.

You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 01:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by k***@attt.bizz
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:58:13 -0600, "Tim Williams"
Post by Tim Williams
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
Your thinking is backwards: it's a good currency specifically because it
is completely and utterly pointless. Read up on "fiat currency". Whereas
carbon credits were created with a purpose in mind.
Bullshit. There is even less transparency behind it than there is the
USG.
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
Yeah, right.
Jasen Betts
2013-12-17 05:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
Yeah, right.
FUD.
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 23:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access
to what.
Bill Sloman
2013-12-18 05:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoi
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access
to what.

krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject, and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be lying, for a start.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.
2013-12-18 22:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoi
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access
to what.
krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject,
and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be lying, for a start.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For some one that likes to point out misspellings, you should check
your grammar, noodle head.

Jamie
Bill Sloman
2013-12-19 01:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoi
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access
to what.
krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject, and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be lying, for a start.
For some one that likes to point out misspellings, you should check
your grammar, noodle head.

You are right. What I should have typed - and clearly intended to type - was
"and anybody who doesn't agree with him has *to* be lying".

It's a simple error of action - which we all make at the rate of about one every half hour. Interested psychologists classify them as deletions (like that one), perseverations, exchanges and blends. I should have caught it, but even professional proof readers miss about 5% of that kind of error on a single pass.

Since you've managed to put two of that kind of error into a single sentence, you really aren't in a position to cast aspersions. You might have been unlucky but you could also have been tired, drunk or distracted, since any one of these conditions is enough to raise the error rate.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
josephkk
2013-12-19 07:06:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:34 -0500, "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr."
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoi
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access
to what.
krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject,
and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be lying, for a start.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For some one that likes to point out misspellings, you should check
your grammar, noodle head.
Jamie
Except for political view differences, nearly distinguishable from Slowman
or Phil A.


?-(
Bill Sloman
2013-12-19 06:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by josephkk
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:34 -0500, "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr."
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access to what.
krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject, and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be to lying, for a start.
<snipped Jamie's literary criticism>
Post by josephkk
Except for political view differences, nearly distinguishable from Slowman or Phil A.
Josephkk seems to be being peculiarly indiscriminate. If he can't see much difference between me, krw and Phil Allison, he'd have trouble distinguishing chalk from cheese. We may all post stuff that he doesn't like reading, but he ought to be hating the posts for very different reasons - krw is boring, Phil is rude, and I'm more left wing than josephkk likes.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Josephkk
2013-12-26 06:38:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:30:49 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
Post by Bill Sloman
Post by josephkk
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:34 -0500, "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr."
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
A.W.
bitcoin is one of the most transparent systems there is.
You can get source form here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
Yeah, right.
FUD.
U, certainly. The fact is that you know nothing about who has access to what.
krw doesn't know enough to suffer from uncertainty. He's absolutely confident that what he knows is the last word on any subject, and anybody who doesn't agree with him has be to lying, for a start.
<snipped Jamie's literary criticism>
Post by josephkk
Except for political view differences, nearly distinguishable from Slowman or Phil A.
Josephkk seems to be being peculiarly indiscriminate. If he can't see much difference between me, krw and Phil Allison, he'd have trouble distinguishing chalk from cheese. We may all post stuff that he doesn't like reading, but he ought to be hating the posts for very different reasons - krw is boring, Phil is rude, and I'm more left wing than josephkk likes.
That you fail to see the much larger comonalities is rather typical.
All three are total jerks. None of them realize it. Nor will they
ever understand it.

?-)

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

John Devereux
2013-12-15 18:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by u***@downunder.com
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:34:56 -0700, RobertMacy
Post by RobertMacy
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:27:22 -0700, Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.
Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.
VLV
With that in mind,
NEVER save bitcoins.
SPEND bitcoins fast, LEAVE others holding bitcoins,
ALWAYS change to real property as fast as possible.
This applies of course to any currency. Assume that the US $100 bill
is so well forged that it passes all checks and the market is flooded
with these forgeries, the value of the US dollar will drop.
Kinda like what the Fed is doing now.
Post by u***@downunder.com
If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.
Bits can be printed even faster than $100 bills.
Post by u***@downunder.com
As a rule of thumb, any cryptographic method will be broken sooner or
later, the real question is, will the method be secure for a limited
period of time when the method is used. Don't expect any cryptological
method to be secure forever.
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
I am surprised you are not all for it - a medium of exchange independent
of government control!
--
John Devereux
Greegor
2013-12-15 20:32:09 UTC
Permalink
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-15 23:48:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:32:09 -0800 (PST), Greegor
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
Pyramid schemes are underground?
Greegor
2013-12-16 02:50:02 UTC
Permalink
G > How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?

krw > Pyramid schemes are underground?

So is Bitcoin if you read up on the guy who created it.

Anonymous creator used a "nym".
John Devereux
2013-12-16 08:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
I don't know; perhaps it is one.

But how is any currency, or gold, or diamonds, any "medium of exchange"
different from a pyramid scheme? They all have very little or zero
intrinsic value compared to their exchange value. They have value
because people (or governments) agree they have value.

I suppose a difference is that it is explicitly designed as a "digital
cash", as opposed to say tulips. And in this respect it has some
advantages compelling to certain folks.
--
John Devereux
Martin Brown
2013-12-16 09:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Devereux
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
I don't know; perhaps it is one.
The difficulty in mining them makes for a rarity value and their
untraceability makes them desirable for dodgy transactions.
Post by John Devereux
But how is any currency, or gold, or diamonds, any "medium of exchange"
different from a pyramid scheme? They all have very little or zero
intrinsic value compared to their exchange value. They have value
because people (or governments) agree they have value.
Gold is faintly useful for oxidation free contacts and diamonds are very
useful for diamond saws. Gem grade ones are vastly overpriced by the
effect of the DeBeers cartel who ISTR are now monogramming their
"natural diamonds" for fear of convincing synthetic imitations.

http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/news/2001/020201story.html
Post by John Devereux
I suppose a difference is that it is explicitly designed as a "digital
cash", as opposed to say tulips. And in this respect it has some
advantages compelling to certain folks.
Mostly for illegal untraceable transactions and now lately for currency
speculation. The guy who threw out a disk with some £4M on it being a
classic example of how easily binary data comes and goes.

Digital cryptographic cash isn't a new idea though - Belgium has had it
in daily use on their bank cards since the 1990's.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jasen Betts
2013-12-16 07:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.

bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 19:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.
bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
The pyramid is that it must be exchanged for some other currency. It's
the tulip of the week.
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
2013-12-17 22:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.
bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
The pyramid is that it must be exchanged for some other currency. It's
the tulip of the week.
unless you are speculating in currency you don't exchange you dollars for
other currencies all the time, you buy stuff and service with it

Same for bitcoin, if someone will sell you stuff for bitcoins because he
trusts that he can later buy stuff he needs for bitcoin no other currency
is needed

-Lasse
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 23:12:23 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:33:52 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.
bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
The pyramid is that it must be exchanged for some other currency. It's
the tulip of the week.
unless you are speculating in currency you don't exchange you dollars for
other currencies all the time, you buy stuff and service with it
Does McDonalds take Bitcoin?
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Same for bitcoin, if someone will sell you stuff for bitcoins because he
trusts that he can later buy stuff he needs for bitcoin no other currency
is needed
Both of you have to trust (and bother) with it. IOW, it's not liquid,
so you have to rely on something that is. Since it's tulip time in
bitcoin land....
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
2013-12-17 23:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:33:52 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.
bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
The pyramid is that it must be exchanged for some other currency. It's
the tulip of the week.
unless you are speculating in currency you don't exchange you dollars for
other currencies all the time, you buy stuff and service with it
Does McDonalds take Bitcoin?
I read there is a Subway that does, will that do? :)

-Lasse
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-18 01:13:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:31:32 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by k***@attt.bizz
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:33:52 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by Greegor
How is bitcoin different from a pyramid scheme?
pyramid schemes promise unlimited money and hide where it comes from.
bitcoin promises a fixed supply and you can download the source.
The pyramid is that it must be exchanged for some other currency. It's
the tulip of the week.
unless you are speculating in currency you don't exchange you dollars for
other currencies all the time, you buy stuff and service with it
Does McDonalds take Bitcoin?
I read there is a Subway that does, will that do? :)
No (keyword 'a').
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-15 23:47:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:51:13 +0000, John Devereux
Post by John Devereux
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by u***@downunder.com
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:34:56 -0700, RobertMacy
Post by RobertMacy
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:27:22 -0700, Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Vladimir Vassilevsky
Post by Bill Bowden
Maybe Bitcoin is the answer to our monetary problems? No more
government control, QE stuff, or inflation.
Bitcoin is government project to dump dollar debt into monopoly money,
and then bust it. Not only this makes easier for dollar but bitcoin
weenies will go belly up. Bitcoin bust will call for even more strict
regulation over banking, and that would be another gain for authorities.
Bitcoin mining is based on NSA-2 hash function.
VLV
With that in mind,
NEVER save bitcoins.
SPEND bitcoins fast, LEAVE others holding bitcoins,
ALWAYS change to real property as fast as possible.
This applies of course to any currency. Assume that the US $100 bill
is so well forged that it passes all checks and the market is flooded
with these forgeries, the value of the US dollar will drop.
Kinda like what the Fed is doing now.
Post by u***@downunder.com
If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.
Bits can be printed even faster than $100 bills.
Post by u***@downunder.com
As a rule of thumb, any cryptographic method will be broken sooner or
later, the real question is, will the method be secure for a limited
period of time when the method is used. Don't expect any cryptological
method to be secure forever.
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
I am surprised you are not all for it - a medium of exchange independent
of government control!
I'm surprised that you advertise that you're a total dolt.
RobertMacy
2013-12-16 14:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Devereux
...snip...to keep Aioe happy
I am surprised you are not all for it - a medium of exchange independent
of government control!
I thought that was the point Vladimir Vassilevsky was making! That using
bitcoins made a system extremely vulnerable to attack from 'govt' entities
and would therefore provide an easy road to further INCREASING of
governmental controls.
Jasen Betts
2013-12-17 05:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by RobertMacy
Post by John Devereux
...snip...to keep Aioe happy
I am surprised you are not all for it - a medium of exchange independent
of government control!
I thought that was the point Vladimir Vassilevsky was making! That using
bitcoins made a system extremely vulnerable to attack from 'govt' entities
and would therefore provide an easy road to further INCREASING of
governmental controls.
In as much as the govt control the internet yeah,

OTOH they can confiscate your bank account. so bitcoins are probably
more resistant to govt tampering than cash in the bank,
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
Jasen Betts
2013-12-16 07:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Devereux
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
I am surprised you are not all for it - a medium of exchange independent
of government control!
Perhaps he's trying to monipulate the demand (and hence price) so he can
buy more.
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
Jasen Betts
2013-12-16 07:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by u***@downunder.com
If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.
Bits can be printed even faster than $100 bills.
I was wondering why we hadn't heard from AlwaysWrong recently.
and then I noticed your sudden drop in reliability,

Bitcoins can't be minted faster than they are currently being minted,
a limited sypply is built into the system.
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
currrently it's easier to exchange bitcoin for goods
--
For a good time: install ntp

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 01:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by u***@downunder.com
If someone manages to forge bitcoins, the values will crash rapidly,
much faster than a massive invasion of paper bills.
Bits can be printed even faster than $100 bills.
I was wondering why we hadn't heard from AlwaysWrong recently.
and then I noticed your sudden drop in reliability,
Gee, another lie. Oh, well...
Post by Jasen Betts
Bitcoins can't be minted faster than they are currently being minted,
a limited sypply is built into the system.
You *are* a trusting soul.
Post by Jasen Betts
Post by k***@attt.bizz
The real question is what's the point of a bitcoin? It seems about as
useful as a Carbon credit.
currrently it's easier to exchange bitcoin for goods
Greegor
2013-12-17 17:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?

The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.

Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.

In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
includes:

"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying documentation."


I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
John Devereux
2013-12-17 18:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
Because he did not want to be bothered by conspiracy theory crackpots?
Post by Greegor
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money
laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions
to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person
who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a
Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and
other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask
to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying
documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
I don't know, how does it apply to a dollar bill?

Is a credit card "currency"?

Credit cards require an authority of national scale to run them, an easy
target for government regulation. Bitcoin does not AIUI.
--
John Devereux
k***@attt.bizz
2013-12-17 19:28:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:57:06 +0000, John Devereux
Post by John Devereux
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
Because he did not want to be bothered by conspiracy theory crackpots?
Post by Greegor
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money
laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions
to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person
who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a
Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and
other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask
to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying
documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
I don't know, how does it apply to a dollar bill?
Explain.
Post by John Devereux
Is a credit card "currency"?
The used (credit) part is certainly circulating, so yes, at least to
that degree.
Post by John Devereux
Credit cards require an authority of national scale to run them, an easy
target for government regulation. Bitcoin does not AIUI.
In bits you trust. Odd.
John Devereux
2013-12-17 20:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@attt.bizz
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:57:06 +0000, John Devereux
Post by John Devereux
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
Because he did not want to be bothered by conspiracy theory crackpots?
Post by Greegor
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money
laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions
to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person
who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a
Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and
other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask
to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying
documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
I don't know, how does it apply to a dollar bill?
Explain.
I understood Greegor to imply that because bitcoin has been ruled a
currency, it ought to be subject to the same rules as credit card usage
agreements.

But dollars, for example, are certainly currency and are *not* subject
to these rules. In fact no other actual currency is, so why should
bitcoin? Credit cards themselves are not really directly "currency" AIUI
(or perhaps "not cash") would be a better way to put it. Bitcoins were
intended as "digital cash". They approximate many characteristics of
cash, they are to a large extent anonymous, untraceable, cannot be
"duplicated" to make more, when they are lost they are gone. Like cash.
Post by k***@attt.bizz
Post by John Devereux
Is a credit card "currency"?
The used (credit) part is certainly circulating, so yes, at least to
that degree.
Post by John Devereux
Credit cards require an authority of national scale to run them, an easy
target for government regulation. Bitcoin does not AIUI.
In bits you trust. Odd.
I don't know enough about it to be that confident, but it is an
interesting idea don't you think? There are some very clever things in
it.

Anyway, in government you trust? Does not sound like you.
--
John Devereux
Greegor
2013-12-17 21:27:24 UTC
Permalink
In reading up on Bitcoin I noticed that I'm
not the first or only person to suspect it
of being a pyramid scheme.
Bill Sloman
2013-12-18 05:50:22 UTC
Permalink
In reading up on Bitcoin I noticed that I'm not the first or only person to suspect it of being a pyramid scheme.
Right-wing nitwits do see pyramid schemes in the most unlikely places.

James Arthur has described the US welfare system as a "pyramid" or a "Ponzi" scheme, ignoring the fundamental feature of both, which is that they require a steadily expanding pool of investors and will fall over when the number of investors can't increase any further. Welfare seems to cover everybody, and has done for many years, so it obviously isn't a pyramid scheme.

Bitcoin clearly hasn't reached that limit yet, but since it's only function is to act as medium of exchange, it could work fine in a finite pool of investors.

Bitcoin tokens have no intrinsic value, but neither does paper money. Both are - in principle - at risk from runaway inflation, but Bitcoins are designed to be hard to make, which does limit the potential for inflation.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Spehro Pefhany
2013-12-17 21:26:02 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:05:25 -0800 (PST), Greegor
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
The (domestic) exchanges I'm aware of take great pains to emphasize
that any purchase or sales require proper identification, just like
you'd need to open a brokerage account.
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
2013-12-17 22:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
Norway has ruled it as a commodity

-Lasse
Robert Baer
2013-12-19 02:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Post by Greegor
Is there any good reason why the creator
of Bitcoin, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is anonymous?
The true identity of Bitcoin creator
"Satoshi Nakamoto" has become a huge mystery.
Some folks think it's a front for a GROUP
of people, possibly benign, possibly malevolent.
In looking at some credit card application
paperwork recently I noticed that the fine print
"To help the government fight the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, federal law requires all financial institutions to obtain, verify and record information that identifies each person who opens a card account. What that means for you: When you open a Card Account, we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver's license or other identifying documentation."
I wonder how that applies to Bitcoin now that it's
been ruled by a court to be "currency".
Norway has ruled it as a commodity
-Lasse
BitCoin and the Euro are almost identical; essentially worth less
than the fake dollar.
The US dollar has the "full faith" of the government behind it - and
everyone knows about the lies being told - making that "faith" worthless
- but . . . . . . it is "something".
The BitCoin and the Euro have absolutely nothing "behind" them...
Loading...